Airsteps in Competitions??

[Gus]

The new brochure for the Blackpool Champs has just dropped through my door. With morbid curiosity I glanced over the rules ... then noticed an interseting change. Airsteps are STILL banned BUT ... the defintion has changed from the follower needing to keep one foot on the floor at all time to needing to keep one foot below the guys waist (similar to the Australaisian version)

Any views as to whether this is a positive or negative change?

[DavidB]

Having a consistent set of rules from one competition to another helps. So if this becomes the standard definition of an aerial, it is fine by me.

I can't think of any common but dangerous aerials that are now legal.

I'm more disappointed that they haven't introduced an Open category. This worked well at Hammersmith, and in Sydney

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB

I'm more disappointed that they haven't introduced an Open category. This worked well at Hammersmith, and in Sydney

Whats the difference between Open and Advanced? Is it just allowing air-steps?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Whats the difference between Open and Advanced? Is it just allowing air-steps?

Nothing to do with aerials - just a separate category for the best dancers. Anyway Blackpool still has an Air Steps category for anyone who wants to do them.

I've already spoken to one couple who won't bother entering the advanced at Blackpool because they know they wouldn't get past the first round. £25 is a lot of money just to dance one heat. And they are definitely not intermediates any more. If you took the top 10-15 couples out into a separate Open category, they would have a shot at making the Advanced final.

You might also get fewer 'advanced' couples dropping down to the intermediate category, and annoying the real intermediates.

I've seen this category at Hammersmith and Sydney, and in both cases it worked well. I only heard praise for the idea, and no criticism. I don't think it would take any more time to run the competition. But there may be a problem with prize money - I doubt C2D have the budget for another major category at the moment.

David

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by DavidB
I've seen this category at Hammersmith and Sydney, and in both cases it worked well. I only heard praise for the idea, and no criticism. I don't think it would take any more time to run the competition. But there may be a problem with prize money - I doubt C2D have the budget for another major category at the moment.

David

would that not be covered by entrance fee?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
would that not be covered by entrance fee?

The only thing I know about the finances of the Blackpool comp is that they need good sales of the video/DVD to break even. Trying to find an extra £800 for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd prizes might be difficult at this stage.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
would that not be covered by entrance fee?

Probably not - since you'd probably get about the same number of people entering, but spread over 3 events, rather than 2. The couple that David was talking about, I'm presuming they will now enter the intermediate.

Originally posted by DavidB
I've already spoken to one couple who won't bother entering the advanced at Blackpool because they know they wouldn't get past the first round. £25 is a lot of money just to dance one heat. And they are definitely not intermediates any more. If you took the top 10-15 couples out into a separate Open category, they would have a shot at making the Advanced final.

It is an interesting point though. The thought of entering, even though you know that you probably won't get anywhere. For myself, I'm pretty sure that we (whoever my partner will be then) wouldn't place at either Blackpool, or Ceroc in London. We'd usually be a good bet for the semi's. And if we dance well, and the judges are looking at the right time, then I guess we'd maybe make the final. But I still enter, mainly because if I'm going to go to Blackpool, and spend all the money getting there, and getting in, I'd rather spend another £12.50, and enter, than just sitting around all day watching. And because it's fun. Isn't that what the majority of people entering do it for? Rather than with any real hopes of getting a trophy.

Steve

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And because it's fun. Isn't that what the majority of people entering do it for? Rather than with any real hopes of getting a trophy.

I think you're right there for the majority, but for some of us, attempting advanced is a major effort in coming up with new stuff, practicing it, remembering the old stuff, practicing it, trying to come up some style, practicing it, and now it seems, doing air steps, and practicing (which can hardly ever be done at a normal jive evening). I was disappointed not to see an Open category, 'cos I'd have to give up everything except dancing to stand the slightest chance against the pros. (I can't imagine I'm alone in this!) I hadn't read far enough to see the change in rules about air steps, but now I know about that one, and even though I've done loads of airsteps in my time, it makes me think that the Intermediate category is where I should be. Which might p**s some people off. However much fun it is, surely anyone having a go must feel getting through one round is attainable?

As far as funding a new major prize, how big does it have to be? How many of us actually go in for the competitions with a thought about getting our hands on a fat cheque?

Greg

[Dave Hancock]

Originally posted by Sheepman
As far as funding a new major prize, how big does it have to be? How many of us actually go in for the competitions with a thought about getting our hands on a fat cheque?

Agree with this totally and for the people who are winning these competitions, they will surely be compensated by adding such titles to their dance CV and by teaching workshops.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Agree with this totally and for the people who are winning these competitions, they will surely be compensated by adding such titles to their dance CV and by teaching workshops.

Ummm. Not sure I agree Dave.

For some of the people in with a chance of winning - Clayton & Janine, James Geary & Lily? etc. - they don't teach (or very, very infrequently if they do), so winning a comp won't make any difference.

Or they are already so well known - Amir & Tas?, Viktor & ..., Mick & Cynty, etc. - that winning Blackpool isn't going to make much, if any, difference.

Although, for someone up and coming, it might make a difference - but I'm not sure that there's anyone in that position (maybe apart from Ben) that would actually stand a chance of winning one of the major competitions anyhow....

Having said that, I still agree that the prizes don't neccessarily need to be so big - it should all be about fun.

Steve

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
... and for the people who are winning these competitions, they will surely be compensated by adding such titles to their dance CV and by teaching workshops.

Hmmmm..... not necessarily. How often have you seen Clayton & Janine teach workshops?

As another example, the prize money for the up-coming Britroc competition is, I am aware, a major factor for some couples entering who would otherwise not have done so.

LilyB

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Agree with this totally and for the people who are winning these competitions, they will surely be compensated by adding such titles to their dance CV and by teaching workshops.

Good joke. Just hiring a studio to practice costs £20 an hour in London, and we practice about 12 hours a week for several months before doing a routine. Then you have the costumes & shoes, the lessons we take, etc. Just going to Blackpool next year would cost us over £300 for the weekend package, entry fees & petrol.

I think we would have to teach workshops every weekend just to break even on what we spend on doing routines. But if we accepted every invitation we got to teach, we would do maybe one workshop every couple of months, and half of those don't pay.

I don't think any of the regular competitors do it for the money, and no-one makes a living from it. But the prize money does help, and is some recognition on the effort people put in.

David

[Sheepman]

I've just had a look at those Blackpool rules, as someone has already said, there is the airsteps competition, though this isn't really the same as an "Open" which limits how many big air steps you can do, and looks like becoming the "professionals" category.

The "below the waist" airsteps rule also seems to apply to the intermediate, seniors, and take a chance. Should be interesting!

Greg

[Emma]

Originally posted by DavidB
Nothing to do with aerials - just a separate category for the best dancers.

Just to play devil's advocate for the moment...( ) actually the Ceroc champs website rules state that the Open section is for 'advanced dancers who want to dance Ceroc with no holds barred' so I'd say it *was* set up as being no different to the Advanced, but with aerials allowed....(my goodness can't believe I'm disagreeing with David..:sorry )

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Emma
Just to play devil's advocate for the moment

A definite improvement on Gus.

You are right. I should have remembered one couple who entered the Open at Hammersmith because it was the only way they could do any aerials. I was thinking of the Australian version, where it was for restricted to anyone who had previously placed in the Advanced or Showcase.

But in the end the Hammersmith Open category turned into a professional/past champions category. Interestingly, with the exception of the Australian couples, there were very few aerials done in the competition.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
A definite improvement on Gus.

David

You BOUNDER Sir ... first you doubt the veracity of my words then you allow some upstart to use my ODA title without complaint

All that aside, I'm not sure how it will change things. I still feel there is a but gulf between the stated aim of musical interpretation scoring and the impression that Big Moves win the day ... maybe this is just a creeping aknowledgement of that as being the truth ..... (Is that ODA enough Messr Oracle )

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus
You BOUNDER Sir ... first you doubt the veracity of my words then you allow some upstart to use my ODA title without complaint

What's a girl to do?? You haven't been around so much - so we had to come up with an ODA rota - it was my turn!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
You BOUNDER Sir ... first you doubt the veracity of my words then you allow some upstart to use my ODA title without complaint

But I wouldn't complain to Emma about anything. I thought you might be more upset with having another gorilla (Boomer) on the forum...

I still feel there is a but gulf between the stated aim of musical interpretation scoring and the impression that Big Moves win the day

I think you may be right. Although in defence of the judges, I think they might not have enough time to see enough interpretation, whereas big moves are easy to spot. There is also the problem of 'interpreting the interpretation' - ie the judge may have completely different views on what constitutes musical interpretation to the competitor.
I may be in a better position to comment after this weekend.

Is that ODA enough

Is it still ODA when I agree?

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
.
Is it still ODA when I agree?

Ahhh Grasshopper, yet still true enlightenment evades you .... who said that was my main point

I think that moving away from the rigidity of one foot on the tarmac is good ... there are some really nice non-threatening moves that can be done involving a gentle lift BUT .... I bet you that there will now be a stream of couples working out just how far they can push this new freedom in order to get some flash moves in.

[Lounge Lizard]

Would it not work if the judges were able to mark on aerials/flash moves and musicality separately - e.g. max 3 points for musicality and max 3 points for ALL aerial moves in a routine, This would then put Ben who has near perfect musicality and Nicky (look mum I can Fly) Haslem on equal standing.
This would be in addition to current marking criteria, it just seems anyone with big moves has a clear advantage in some catagories/competitions
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