Feedback on recent changes

[Danger Mouse]

Originally posted by Rachel
I also like the new ladyspin - where, rather than the ball and socket handhold, the leader takes his left (?) hand over and takes hold of the lady's wrist or forearm to spin her. I think it feels nicer that way.

Ah! I joined in with a beginner’s session on Wednesday at my local club & we were taught the new ladyspin. I can’t say I like it at the moment, it might grow on me who knows. I rather like the ball & socket way of doing it and I’m used to using the momentum generated by the push to spin myself & I’m not sure if it looks as good using the new ladyspin.

So I’m going to stick to the old method in freestyle unless someone red cards me.

[bigdjiver]

One of my magic moments as a novice was being paired with a skin-head lady and hearing for the first time "The next move is the short comb". She could not understand why I was biting my lip.

I am 6'3 and a cross betwen Lurch and Hermann Munster, so the comb does not feature in my repetoire. "Best seen as a blur"

I do dance a lot with beginners. The only time I demonstrate the comb is for ladies that lack energy, or have trouble spinning, to show that there are rest moves.

A lot of people hate the "in your face" aspect of it. "If it were taught, it were best taught quickly"? One the other hand there are people who come to MJ seeking the UCP experience, with the right partner, and it is a godsend for those beginners.

[Jon]

Dan said it's 1 classic intermediate move but ceroc kent teach 2 of the 4 moves as classics. Now given that alot of people go dancing more than one a week prehaps 3 or more then as a dancer your very quickly going to be repeating moves.

I agree we do need something for improvers and prehaps restricting it to one move is better but would they cope with the other 3 moves, would they be satisfied with 1 move then droping out? Dunno hard to answer or would a seperate class be better but where do you teach it?

As for advanced dancers they don't nessacerly want more and more complicated moves but rather style tips on simple moves.

So prehaps, 1 classic move, 1 fairly simple move with style tips, 1 intermediate move with style taught so all 3 can be repeated. Then people can drop out so 1 hard move can be taught.

Unsure about warmup classes although having done salsa intermediate warm up classes are great. If it's something similar then I'm all for it.

Thank goodness the half windmill is going, I know one teacher who won't like that tho!

[fruitcake]

Sorry folks, don't rally have time to read all the posts, but I'd like to put my tuppenceworth in....
i think the warm up is great for new people, REALLY great, bit boring for the others but what the hell, you get to say hello and yak to people which you can't normally do if you're concentrating on moves. Its very reassuring for the new ones, who lets be honest , are probably terrified. personally i get the warm up of my muscles getting out of the car and up the steps!!
But it helps loosen ones mind, preparing one for the next lot of moves.

oops "the rock"'s about to start-I'm off!

[Pete]

Originally posted by Gus
Hmmm ... the only issue I'd possibly raise is the comb. Being somewhat conservative in nature I would like to remove combs from the beginners syllabus entirely. Its the intimacy of this move which seems to make many beginners uncomfortable ... even when doing on workshops.

Thank gawd for that - I thought I was the only person who found the comb buttock-clenchingly embarrassing to learn. Me clenching my own buttocks, btw.

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Pete
Thank gawd for that - I thought I was the only person who found the comb buttock-clenchingly embarrassing to learn. Me clenching my own buttocks, btw.

I am not a shy person, but found the comb awfully intimate for a beginner, it invades your personal space when you're not used to it. I also found when the guys were looking straight in to your eyes,very unnerving, I used to look at my feet.
Now I'm more used to it, and know most the folks I find it easy and just look right back at 'em,

[Doc Iain]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I've had a look at the list of "Classics" at cerockent.com - and I agree with Andy that putting two of them into every intermediate class is a dumbing down.

This is a possibility but I have recently been to a very good class in Bromley where the 2 "classic" moves were taught fairly briskly then a good deal of emphasis was placed on, not just being able to do the moves but doing them with a bit of style, which personally is where I feel some ceroc dancers (including myself) and classes loose out. It is fine building up a large repertoire of moves as has been suggested, but personally I feel I am dancing my best when I use less moves but do more with them! The class I mention helped people to do this with the 2 simpler moves. Then she taught 2 harder moves on the end. This way also the teachers can actually raise the standard of the class by adding some really quite hard to dance or harder to teach (double pretzal etc.) moves on the end and not worrying that they will have scared off anyone who has just moved up a level.

I think it is a great idea so long as the style and musicality of the first two classic moves is emphasised.

[Bigger Andy]

Isn't talking about teaching 'style' opening up a whole new can of worms ?

I went to a 'style' workshop run by Ceroc Kent and the main thrust of the workshop was that style was a personal thing and that we all had our own individual style and that the teachers job was to bring it out of us.

I must admit that when I went to the workshop I had expected that I would be taught the correct way to do things !

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Doc Iain
but personally I feel I am dancing my best when I use less moves but do more with them!

Totally agree with this..

The class I mention helped people to do this with the 2 simpler moves.

However, it is perfectly possible to take this approach simply by picking intermediate routines to include some simpler moves, whose style points can then be emphasised, rather than mandating two (or even one) of a particular set.

Also, I'd argue that the people this will really help (assuming the "do more with the moves" is being taught well) are the ones that are already looking to improve their style. Sad but IMHO true, most will ignore style points anyway.

Chris

[Doc Iain]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Totally agree with this..
However, it is perfectly possible to take this approach simply by picking intermediate routines to include some simpler moves, whose style points can then be emphasised...

Also, I'd argue that the people this will really help (assuming the "do more with the moves" is being taught well) are the ones that are already looking to improve their style. Sad but IMHO true, most will ignore style points anyway.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Bigger Andy
I must admit that when I went to the workshop I had expected that I would be taught the correct way to do things !

You are confusing style with technique. Don't worry - you are not alone. There isn't any commonly accepted definition on what style is.

My definition (at the moment) is:
Technique is what you need to do to dance well, principally to make it feel good to your partner.
Style is everything else you do when you dance, hopefully to make it look good to your partner, and your audience.

Good Style is completely subjective. Good Technique can be a lot more objective. (eg you can argue about whether someone's style looks good. But you can't argue when someone's technique hurts their partner!)

And it is not black and white - some things can fit both definitions.

Even if it was advertised as a Technique Class, you still could be taught several different things. There isn't just one correct technique - there are lots of ways of doing things right. You just try to find whatever works for you. The main aim is to avoid doing the things that are definitely wrong.

David

[Katie]

Originally posted by DavidB


My definition (at the moment) is:
Technique is what you need to do to dance well, principally to make it feel good to your partner.
Style is everything else you do when you dance, hopefully to make it look good to your partner, and your audience.

David

Thanks David for your definition, it really helps. Now i understand that when someone comments about great technique, but fails to praise their style - i am now wiser!

[Funky Si]

'ello,

Thought I'd just share my opinion in regard to the warm-up!

IMHO, in the 4 years plus I've been DJ'ing there has always been historically a certain resistance to any form of change within dance as it can make people feel uncertain and insecure, BUT the only way things will ever develop and become more what the dancers want is by change. Bit of a catch 22 really.

Personally, I feel the 'warm-up' class works for the majority that it is aimed at: the beginners. As has already been pointed out, it is not a warm-up in the athletic sense, it more of a warm-up in the fun sense. It gets people moving, regardless of skill level, so it has the effect of instantly putting brand new dancers at ease with basic movements that they feel they can do. This builds their confidence and hopefully means they will return. It also puts everyone on the 'same level.'

From my DJ position, I can clearly see that people enjoy it. I would also say that the people that don't enjoy it fall within a very specific demographic.

Also, by the nature of the length of the night, there is only a finite amount of time in which to do things, and as crew, we have to try and provide a well-balanced night of modern jive. This will inevitably mean that we don't always satisfy the extreme ends of the dancing spectrum, from the total beginner to the advanced dancer, but we certainly try!

Again, I think the feedback is welcome and time will tell if these changes work for the majority.




Funky Si


www.kordmusic.com

[Gadget]

I had a brief converasation with Lisa about the "Warmup" and from that stemmed the following thoughts:
- The term "Warmup" is incorrect. If anything, I think that it should be called an "Extended introduction to Dance" or "Introduction to Ceroc" {/MJ}
- The teachers have to be sold on the concept before they can teach it effectivly.
- The concept (what the end result is meant to acheive) needs to be defined before the 'excercises' are defined.
- The introduction should last between 2 and 5 mins

I think that the whole idea is to give the class an introduction to dancing, more specifically partner dancing. What you need to do is imagine that everyone is from the planet Zog and has no idea of what to do or how to do it, so leading from this you need to define the most basic elements of dancing: Rhythm, movement and lead/follow.

Introducing rhythm and movement is simply listening to a track and stepping with it; this can vary from week to week to keep interest levels. I would also include somthing about not stopping - even if you think a move is screwd.
For a lot of people this seems stupid, moving to music just comes naturally (ladies more than men) but I have seen/danced with people that just do not know how to move to a beat!

Introducing lead/follow is a bit harder as beginner ladies always predict and move where they should instead of doing what the man leads. Poss have the ladies close eyes and men start/stop the basic movement above via a signal from the stage?
It would also be nice to incorporate 'together-away' and 'clockwise-anticlockwise' concepts.

This "introduction" could also be seen as an introduction to taxi dancers, workshops and what they entail - I would imagine that takeup of them may increase due to this.

[Bigger Andy]

Originally posted by Funky Si

I would also say that the people that don't enjoy it fall within a very specific demographic.

Would you care to elaborate ?

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Funky Si
From my DJ position, I can clearly see that people enjoy it. I would also say that the people that don't enjoy it fall within a very specific demographic.

From my own experience, and extrapolating from the general attitude at beginner's lessons locally, I'd guess the demographic would be:

"Self-conscious men, lacking in confidence concerning their ability to dance".

Which might indeed be a specific demographic, but it is a rather large and commercially important one...?

[Danger Mouse]

Are all Ceroc venues now following this edict?

If so I think I'll go to a beginers session tonight at my local just to experience this 'warmup' and I'll give you my thoughts tomorrow.

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Stuart M
From my own experience, and extrapolating from the general attitude at beginner's lessons locally, I'd guess the demographic would be:

"Self-conscious men, lacking in confidence concerning their ability to dance".

Which might indeed be a specific demographic, but it is a rather large and commercially important one...?

Actually, the demographic I was refering too is exactly the opposite of the one you have quited above Stuart. I think the 'warmup' (or whatever it's called now) actually helps the people you pointed out probably more than most!

[jivecat]

Originally posted by Funky Si

From my DJ position, I can clearly see that people enjoy it.

Going completely off topic, if DJs pay attention to whether the crowd are enjoying themseves, why don't they notice the difference between music that makes people dance with energy, pleasure and enthusiasm, and the kind of music that makes people dance like extras from "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?"
Cos then they could not bother playing the latter type, couldn't they? Or is this all too hopelessly subjective?

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Danger Mouse
Ah! I joined in with a beginner’s session on Wednesday at my local club & we were taught the new ladyspin. I can’t say I like it at the moment, it might grow on me who knows. I rather like the ball & socket way of doing it and I’m used to using the momentum generated by the push to spin myself & I’m not sure if it looks as good using the new ladyspin.

So I’m going to stick to the old method in freestyle unless someone red cards me.

Obviously this is happening every where now

As Im not a beginner should I comment ?

Im not letting the old ball and socket go without a fight.

Poor beginners now they will be dancing with intermediates that will be using the 'old ways'.

90% of intermediates used are not used by 90% of the people in general dancing .

I wish ceroc would stop trying to invent 'new moves' which nobody uses