Specious arguments, no. 1: Children

[Dreadful Scathe]

why is 'wonder why you called her Logan' not an option

...no no its nice, just makes me think of 'Logans Run'

I would do D) and E) Get up, cuddle, try to calm her and probably fail,carry her to her own bed - if you do that every night she'll get the message...children arent stupid , they're just persistant In fact, a childs mind is different to an adults in one major regard, they do something without considering the consequences* - which makes consistancy on the part of parents all the more effective - if the kiddies get the same outcome all the time then it doesnt matter that the bairns dont consider the consqeuences, they already know what they are


*theres probably some adults reading who think they dont often consider consequences, you rebellious types you...rubbish i say! Other than instant reaction to something, EVERYTHING you do requires consideration, although perhaps some of it is habitual but thats experience innit


Go on Gadget - whats your social work story ?

[MartinHarper]

your child wakes you saying they want to sleep in your bed...

Get her to sleep in your brother's bed instead.

[Gadget]

why is 'wonder why you called her Logan' not an option

Why not? It's wolverene's name too. (that wasn't why we called her it BTW) I don't know anyone by that name, so she can make it her own.

I would do D) and E) Get up, cuddle, try to calm her and probably fail,carry her to her own bed - if you do that every night she'll get the message...children arent stupid , they're just persistant

So you are now rewarding your child for getting you up every night; giving them attention and loving acceptance - special 1 on 1 time. Is that likley to stop them doing it tomorrow night? They're not stupid.

Go on Gadget - whats your social work story ?

Later... it's quite intricate.

Get her to sleep in your brother's bed instead.

I'm trying to stop that as well; she climbs in and steals her brothers passifier (another thing I'm trying to break her from )

[Gadget]

OK, this is going to be a long post, so get your coco or ignore it and go-do-something-more-interesting-instead.

Background:
Child A is eight years old. She is very good at taking facts and spinning half-truths from them to make people listen to her; example, Two kids playing on trampoline - one falls off. Child A witnesses it and helps the fallen child in to mum for a sympathy cuddle before she goes and bounces again. The next day, she had it recounted and spread how the first one pushed the second off. A fallacy that had the parents of the pusher phoning to apologise for their child.
Child A also has a brother of 5 (child B) and a sister of 2. The brother is not as adept as his sister, but getting there.

Child C is a neighbouring child that goes to the same class as child A. They were "friends" of sorts. (well, you go through school with someone; they are friends) She also has a brother (child D) who is so honest that he gets himself grounded by volunteering information on his own actions; example, Another girl is bullying his sister. He hits her. He tells his mum - who has brought him up to not hit girls - and he gets grounded for a month.

The story:
It's a Thursday. Child A, Child B, Child C and Child D walking home from school as they normally do. For some reason, child A covers child C in spittle. Her coat is wet from it. When Child C gets home, her mother asks why it's wet and is told. The mother is obviously concerned and not wanting to jump to any conclusions, phones the mother of child A.
Who goes off the deep end. Her children know right from wrong. They know what's acceptable behaviour and that is not it! A screaming match ensues where child A is held against a wall and shouted at, followed by being shut in the pantry.

Friday. The mother of child A is feeling guilty and says, "look, I lost it; I'm sorry - do you want to take the day off and we'll have a girlie pampering." Well duh?
Meanwhile child B goes to school. In the playground, a supervising teacher hears "...she was in big trouble... mum strangled her, threw her in a cupboard and locked it.... she's dead... " and a few more choice exaggerations from the five year old.
At the end of classes, Child B is taken aside and quizzed by teachers.

Child B is escorted home by a social worker to speak to his mother.

The social worker 'interviews' child A. Child A made a good story even better.

It's 8:00pm. The police have just taken children AB and their sister from their family and cut off all communication with anyone they know.

It's Sunday. Child A is passed to a temporary foster carer while child B and his sister are taken to another. The Mother and Father can't do anything about getting them back or even arranging visiting/talking to their children until Monday.

A week has passed. They managed to arrange to get some clothes and personal stuff to the kids on the Monday. They saw their children on the afternoon of the Wednesday - under supervision. There have been two interviews with the police and social services. The parents are now on the child protection registry. There is a court hearing on Tuesday and they should have their children back in their own beds after that. Neither have slept very much.

It's Wednesday and the children are staying with their gran (two doors down from their own house) The parents are allowed to 'interact' with them, but the kids can't go home until some piece of paperwork is shuffled somewhere. The mother has to go to "good parenting classes" for a month or so.

Now.
How do you discipline your children? You're scared that anything you do will result in them being taken away. What once was an outgoing 3-year old is now acting introverted. The 5 year old understands a bit more, but is even more of a 'cry-baby' than he was before. Child A is getting better at disguising the truth and fabricating plausible realities.

Child A is banned from even seeing Child C (the last time they happend to be in the same place for two mins, child A was grounded for a month.)

Chid A's mother blames everything on Child C or more precisely her mother. Child A's Aunt and her mother (sisters) used to spend half there lives talking to each other - Child C's mother is best friends with the Aunt. A's mother will now cross to the other side of the road (and bundle her kids with her) rather than even acknowledge the existance of her sister and their kids of the same age.


How do you sort this mess out?(*) Was it really in the best interests of the children to be ripped from, then isolated from friends, family and loved ones? What good has come out of the intervention that third parties took? If you were recounted the same story, would you have called in social services? Were they right in their actions?

(*)really, if you have any good ideas; let me know - the 'aunt' is my wife. {and people still ask why I don't watch soap operas }

[Dreadful Scathe]

Why not? It's wolverene's name too. (that wasn't why we called her it BTW) I don't know anyone by that name, so she can make it her own.

er....except for Wolverine obviously..and Logan from Logans run but its cool on a girl too

So you are now rewarding your child for getting you up every night; giving them attention and loving acceptance - special 1 on 1 time. Is that likley to stop them doing it tomorrow night? r

Rewarding ? by not letting them do what they want and ending them back to bed ? hmm how do you work that one out ?(they wouldnt get the cuddles the next night, that'd larn 'em)

and steals her brothers passifier

Pacifier ? What!! you turned American? - its a "dummy tit" where I come from

[Andy McGregor]

(*)really, if you have any good ideas; let me know - the 'aunt' is my wife. {and people still ask why I don't watch soap operas }

Book to see your MP at one of his/her surgeries. H M Gov is ultimately responsible for the actions of Social Services. If you are unhappy with the "Services" you receive your MP should know. I've been involved in a few of these cases and it's surpising how quickly things move once your MP has asked a few questions.

On the other hand, does anyone have a good story with a happy ending to tell about the actions of Social Services?

[Gadget]

I've been involved in a few of these cases and it's surpising how quickly things move once your MP has asked a few questions.

But what could be done? Everyone followed the paths that they saw as 'right' - the only thing that may have been slicker was the paperwork and availability of someone to deal with things on the weekend; the descisions would still have been the same, the actions taken the same, the feelings from these the same.

And anyway, Alex Salmond is a bit busy just now

Rewarding ? by not letting them do what they want and ending them back to bed ? hmm how do you work that one out ?(they wouldnt get the cuddles the next night, that'd larn 'em)

Exactly my point - this happens every other night. The child gets 'rewarded' for getting up by cuddles and loving understanding - the "carrot" is given for a 'bad' action, therefore encouraging them to do it again....

next.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Exactly my point - this happens every other night. The child gets 'rewarded' for getting up by cuddles and loving understanding - the "carrot" is given for a 'bad' action, therefore encouraging them to do it again....
.

ah point taken. As I said though cuddles the first night, no more cuddles ater

I bet its really that easy

[Heather]

But, I do think legislation has gone too far. Here is an example of rules gone mad that I experienced a few years ago. My youngest daughter kept on getting nits We'd inspect her hair every night and treat her for them, clear them up - and then she'd get nits again, and again, and again. The situation got so bad the expensive prep school she attended arranged for a visit from a nurse to educate us about nits. Of course, we went along. The nurse told us we were doing everything we could and were getting it right and also that we were only the second parents to see her in 2 hours! The problem was that some other parents weren't doing anything about their children's nits and their children kept re-infesting our daughter. I asked why the school hadn't done anything about it and was told that they weren't allowed to tell the child or the parents due to the rules and regulations!!!

I totally empathise with this. Just a couple of weeks ago my I found the same thing in my daughters hair, I treated her immediately (not a nice job) but lo and behold 10 days later she has them again!! Another day off school to treat them but unless the child in her class who has them and is passing them around, is also treated, them my poor daughter can, in theory,get them every week.
The school is powerless to act other than send out a general letter, to the effect that an outbreak of head lice has been reported and that parents should check their child's head.
As a parent, I find this totally unsatisfactory, as some parents do not even read letters sent home, let alone act on them!!
As a teacher, I find this totally ridiculous, as even whilst aware that a child in the class is constantly infested with headlice and whose parents totally disregard any communication from the school, I am powerless to do anything about it, other than wear my hair up and avoid contact with the said child!!!!!
I personally would have no objection to a nurse rifling through my child's hair every wee while, indeed I often ask the nurse to look through mine.
Apparently they are not allowed to do so as it constitutes 'an infringement of the child's civil liberties'. How daft is that!!!
Bring back the 'Nit Nurse', and let's get rid of stupid bureaucracy!!!!


Heather.

[Andy McGregor]

But what could be done? Everyone followed the paths that they saw as 'right' - the only thing that may have been slicker was the paperwork and availability of someone to deal with things on the weekend; the descisions would still have been the same, the actions taken the same, the feelings from these the same.

Firstly, the parents should be removed from the child protection register. Secondly, there has been an adverse social consequence of the actions of Social Services. They believed a child's lies, they probably have to rather than ignore what could be true. But the consquence of their actions has been far worse than the consequence of their inaction. My stance would be to approach Social Services, outline the situation as it has developed and ask for their help and advice in putting things back on a even keel. Someone at Social Services must have seen this kind of thing before and must have strategies to manage the situation. Someone at Social Services must know what they're doing - please tell me they do

And anyway, Alex Salmond is a bit busy just now

Your MP must always make time for his constituents - it's his job to do so

Exactly my point - this happens every other night. The child gets 'rewarded' for getting up by cuddles and loving understanding - the "carrot" is given for a 'bad' action, therefore encouraging them to do it again....

I've been there, almost exactly the same situation, but every night. And a repeat performance if we put our sleeping daughter back in her own bed while she was asleep. This interrupted sleep took its toll on both of us and we were tired and irritable much of the time. So, after months and months we took the advice given to us by the Health Visitor. It goes like this;

Every baby/child wakes up a few times in the night. Often they just go back to sleep. But, if they cry for attention/ask to sleep in mummy and daddy's bed and get cuddles/let in bed they will do that every time they wake up. You create the problem by giving the cuddles and giving in to their request. The answer is to calmly insist that they go back to their bed, if necessary take them back, and never give in.

On the first night this resulted in 1 hour and 10 minutes of crying at about 1am and about 30 mins of crying at about 4am. The second night there were two sessions of crying of about 15 mins each. The third night onwards there was no crying. This sounds easy, it was not easy at all, by the end of the first session of tears Sue was crying and I was close to tears as well. If you do this don't expect to get much sleep on the first night - but then you weren't sleeping much anyway! We were so desperate for a complete night's sleep we persevered. Remember, you need to be wide awake for your kids during the day, you owe it to the children to be fit to play with them and enjoy their company rather than resent them keeping you awake at nights.

I have passed on this advice to a few parents who have children/babies that keep them awake at nights. It has always worked.

[DianaS]

I totally empathise with this. Just a couple of weeks ago my I found the same thing in my daughters hair, I treated her immediately (not a nice job) but lo and behold 10 days later she has them again!! Another day off school to treat them but unless the child in her class who has them and is passing them around, is also treated, them my poor daughter can, in theory,get them every week.
The school is powerless to act other than send out a general letter, to the effect that an outbreak of head lice has been reported and that parents should check their child's head.
As a parent, I find this totally unsatisfactory, as some parents do not even read letters sent home, let alone act on them!!
As a teacher, I find this totally ridiculous, as even whilst aware that a child in the class is constantly infested with headlice and whose parents totally disregard any communication from the school, I am powerless to do anything about it, other than wear my hair up and avoid contact with the said child!!!!!
I personally would have no objection to a nurse rifling through my child's hair every wee while, indeed I often ask the nurse to look through mine.
Apparently they are not allowed to do so as it constitutes 'an infringement of the child's civil liberties'. How daft is that!!!
Bring back the 'Nit Nurse', and let's get rid of stupid bureaucracy!!!!


Heather.

I had a similar problem with Alex when he was 11. His hair was short but he came home time and time again with lice. No-one else in our family had them and Jason was really sweet. He made Alex feel really okay about it all (he was 14) once complaining to me it wasn't fair Alex would share his "friends" with him. How Alex felt was really important and I used to tell him that the nits were having dinner parties and wild times when I looked through and found some.
He didn't like it though and when I talked to the school about how much it was affecting his confidence and self esteem, they explained that they knew about the problem but to actually lay hands on a child to check for nits constituted an assault. It was awful because the child was evidentally being neglected, and other children were moving away from him.
I used a lotion that nits hate the smell of (its really nice though I think it has tea tree oil in it) and every detereant we could lay our hands on.

Eventually Alex asked if he could go to school wearing a swimming cap, children find their own solutions but since he's been in secondary schol he hasn't had any more incidences.

Do try the lotion, it was effective!
But if your really miffed the swimming cap in an absolute sure winner

[Andy McGregor]

Do try the lotion, it was effective!

The most effective treatment we've found is a mousse. Once we'd started using that is was so easy compared to the old method of conditioner and a nit comb - although it was quite satifying to actually see the little blighters washed down the plug-hole

[jivecat]

Incredible thread , this. It's so personal!! A timely reminder to me, as a child-free teacher, of the passionate strength of feeling a parent has for his/her children.

As a teacher, I find this totally ridiculous, as even whilst aware that a child in the class is constantly infested with headlice and whose parents totally disregard any communication from the school, I am powerless to do anything about it, other than wear my hair up and avoid contact with the said child!!!!!
I personally would have no objection to a nurse rifling through my child's hair every wee while, indeed I often ask the nurse to look through mine.
Apparently they are not allowed to do so as it constitutes 'an infringement of the child's civil liberties'. How daft is that!!!
Bring back the 'Nit Nurse', and let's get rid of stupid bureaucracy!!!!


Heather.

Funnily enough, even though I've been a teacher for 25 years, I've never actually caught headlice myself, even when I've seen them rambling rampantly through the hair of children in my class. And I'm sure that occasionally there must have been head to head contact. I heard once about a theory that headlice prefer childrens's heads: adults don't get them because of the change in hormones/chemistry which the bugs don't like. DianaS said her son no longer got them at secondary school - could it be he'd reached puberty and this is the reason? Perhaps a secondary school teacher could tell us if the usual infant head lice epidemic still happens when they get older.

Now, why am I discussing headlice on a forum about dance?

[Dreadful Scathe]

this is the Chit Chat area, you can discuss anything you like

I assumed that the school nurse would still check children for lice its bizarre that this is no longer the case - i remember getting checked at school.

[Tiggerbabe]

i remember getting checked at school.

Did you keep your hat on though? Don't think I've ever seen a smurf hatless.

[Gadget]

Your MP must always make time for his constituents - it's his job to do so

Sorry; this was an attempt at humor since he's just been elected leader of the SNP again.

I've been there, almost exactly the same situation, but every night. ~snip~ I have passed on this advice to a few parents who have children/babies that keep them awake at nights. It has always worked.

I know - and it's the solution I have been trying for a long time - unfortunatly she also suffers from night terrors {<-scary for any parent} and has my stubborness with my wife's temper. Now I tell her to go back to bed, and she says "you take me". bloody kid's too smart for her own good.

Re: nitts - I remember getting tem in secondary school, and I remember being checked by the school nurse in primary school - but it wasn't a regular thing; once and that was it.
I did hear that they preferred clean hair, bt whether that was just my parents trying to re-assure me I don't know.

[TheTramp]

I remember being checked for nits in school. Didn't have any. Also didn't feel particularly assaulted.

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

I remember being checked for nits in school. Didn't have any. Also didn't feel particularly assaulted.

Trampy

And look how well-adjusted you turned out

[ElaineB]

My daughter is now 16 and half and recently caught nits again! This time from a 17 year old, so I don't think hormonal changes work on the little blighters (nits that is, not teenagers!).

Re the smacking scenario, I have seen Adults smack their (misbehaving?) children, when words would have worked. Those children in turn have hit other children when they have been displeased by something another child has done. The reason? They have been taught that violence is the way to solve issues. Recently, I had cause to discuss this with a friend who was smacking her child - the smacking of couse did not work, as the child just became more billigerent. The only thing that I could think of saying to her in the end was 'well, how did smacking your child make you feel?', to which, the answer was 'bad'. I can only hope that the realisation that a) smacking did not change her childs behaviour and b) that it made her feel bad, may have shocked her into rethinking her attitude. She was beaten by her parents as a child and resents it - funny how the circle can continue to turn!

Now, advice please! Teenagers! How do you turn them from selfish introverted monsters into something more human?? My daughter agreed to accompany myself and my mother for my mothers bi-annual 'airing'. My daughter made it clear from the start that she was there under sufferance, hardly strung together a sentance, used her mobile phone until she had 'white finger syndrome' from texting and either walked in front or behind us. Her name is Joanna, but I am thinking of renaming her 'Kevinne'.

Whenever I talk to her, I either get yes or no, or am treated to a full blown political debate on the rights and wrongs of the world. She attends a private School and has very left wing views, but only seems to be bothered to see me if it involves receiving money from me! Contrary or what!

Hmmm, having reread the last bit, perhaps she is normal after all! Seriously though, do I just put up with being treated like something she has just stepped in, or is there a way by which she can see that actually, I am also a human being? Advices oh wise forumites - please!!!


Elaine

[Andy McGregor]

Now, advice please! Teenagers! How do you turn them from selfish introverted monsters into something more human??

-snip-

Advices oh wise forumites - please!!!


Elaine

It sounds like we have identical daughters

I also have daughters aged 18 and 12

My advice is to be patient. Remember how we put our parents through it and look how lovely we turned out

One thing I have found useful is to get to know their friends. My daugher's friends tell her I'm a cool dad - at least compared to their own dads ...