Time for competitions to evolve ?

[RobC]

So, with Blackpool, Ceroc & Bristol gone, Scotland just around the corner and Britroc on the horizon, it's time to start looking forward towards next year's competitons. Now is the time for us competitors to make our voices heard and hopefully for the organisers to listen.

Throughout this year there has been much debate - quite heated at times - about the various categories and how people enter. Some people has been voiciforous in their support of the 3 category (Intermediate / Advanced / Open) approach, while others favour the 2 categories that Blackpool use. Each have their pro's and con's, but one thing which most people seem to agree on is that it would seem unfair to prevent people from entering a freestyle category just because they fit someone's definition of a teacher.

So, here's a thought for you to mull over. Is it time to think about a different way to categorise the competitions ? As some of you may know, I come from a ballroom competition background, and over the years I have seen how ballroom competitions have evolved, both in the student circuit and on the open amateur circuit. The student competition format used to use the 2 category approach: beginners (people dancing less than a year) and open (everyone else). Then there was the Basic categories. These were open to all, but the dancers were restricted to just dancing moves from a defined list of basic steps.

On the amateur circuit, they have a multiple category approach: Beginners, Novice, Intermediate, Pre-Champ & Amateur. There is no time limit on you being a beginner, and you can enter multiple categories if you wish. You are only forced out of a category and up to the next level when you win 2 competitions at that level. However, the beginners and novice categories are restricted to basic steps and novice is a 2-dance, Intermediate a 3-dance & Pre-champ a 4-dance competition. The student circuit, after many years of debate have also gone down this multiple category approach as well.

Obviously this 2,3,4-dance approach is not applicable in modern jive, and there are a lot less MJ competitions each year than ballroom comps, so the win 2 and move up might need to be win one and move, however what do people think about restricting the moves people can use in a competition ?

Could there ever be a concensus on what the defined 'Basic' moves were ? Could the various competition organisers be persuaded to all use the same definition ? The Ceroc list of beginners moves could be a starting point. Do LeRoc have a similar list ?

Could a multiple category approach work, where there are no restriction on who enters the categories, but the lower categories are restricted to 'Basic' steps ?

Does anyone else have any radical (or not so radical) ideas on how the copmetition category situation could be improved ?

I open the floor to the debate......

[Lou]

Could there ever be a concensus on what the defined 'Basic' moves were ? Could the various competition organisers be persuaded to all use the same definition ? The Ceroc list of beginners moves could be a starting point. Do LeRoc have a similar list ?

I don't have any particular viewpoint on competitions (as I don't compete!), however, if it's any use to you, the Elmgrove LeRoc website lists the following beginners moves:

Arch (Archie Spin), Basket, Short Butterfly (a variation on the Butterfly), Change Places (Man's Spin), Figure of Eight, First Move, Hatchback, Ladies Spin (Free Spin), Loophole (Variation on Octopus), Neckbreak, Nigel's Move (Springer), Overhead Change (Hallelujah), Push-Pull (Arm-Jive), Secret Move, Closed Sway, Windmill, Wurlitzer, Yo-Yo.

Personally, I'd drop the Short Butterfly & Secret Move, as I don't know anywhere else that teaches them as a beginner move. I'd add a Travelling Return, Side to Side, Comb, and possibly a Shoulder Slide (simplified Shoulder Drop), based on what's taught at other LeRoc classes.

[DianaS]

Perhaps we can think about having something to include and develop our community more.
In martial art competitions we competed in bands made of groups of belts and had a veterans class for oldies, it was a good idea cas they were far too good for us! Style wise it would be difficult for a sixty year old couple to compete against people in their 30's but its so nice to see how people with 40 years experience travel move and interprete music.
I would also really like to see a youngsters group to encourage our younger people, it needn't be too formal just a little bit of space for them to do something on either on their own or with a partner. When they go to see their parents compete its nice if they can have a sense of inclusion.
Competitions for me are very much about participating and sharing, I don't feel "good enough" but after being around for a while longer I'll come along to a local competion on cheer you all on!

[Gordon J Pownall]

Perhaps we can think about having something to include and develop our community more.
In martial art competitions we competed in bands made of groups of belts and had a veterans class for oldies,

What do they do in Oz...

Don't they have bronze silver and gold depenmding upon experience or something - I was told ages ago but have forgotten.

Perhaps our Antipodean Forumites could enlighten us...???

[Divissima]

Perhaps it is time to dust off an old idea of ChrisA's... and found the UK Modern Jive Dancers' Assiciation (or Federation) - a federation for dancers to have their own voice, separate from the teaching and competition organisations. The MJDA could lobby for things like transparent judging criteria, standardised categories (maybe even an accepted definition of beginner, intermediate and advanced). They could also organise a national league table of dancers with rankings, if people were interested in having one. They could represent the interests of all MJ dancers - maybe by providing information on dance-related matters (maybe a list of dance physio and other therapists), print cool t-shirts, negotiate discounts with dance events, and generally be good eggs...

OK, so I'm half joking, but I'm also half serious. I think dancers could benefit from having a voice, independently of the ceroc, leroc and other organisations. I particularly think that competitive dancers would benefit from having a voice in relation to the competition organisers - but we competitors are in a very small minority when compared with the number of MJ dancers in the UK. What do people think? If enough people think I'm not completely off my rocker, I could look into it further (look at what the BDF and other organisations do for their members).

[Gordon J Pownall]

If enough people think I'm not completely off my rocker, I could look into it further (look at what the BDF and other organisations do for their members).

You are off your rocker - totally and completely in a scary kind of lovely way...

However you speak sense above and that is very different - like the idea but would you be able to get all the organisers of competitions to subscribe or is there a risk that we would end up with another competition that offers a UK National Dance Champions title / status...???

Good idea Bat(wo)man.....

[under par]

Perhaps it is time to dust off an old idea of ChrisA's... and found the UK Modern Jive Dancers' Assiciation (or Federation) - a federation for dancers to have their own voice, separate from the teaching and competition organisations. The MJDA could lobby for things like transparent judging criteria, standardised categories (maybe even an accepted definition of beginner, intermediate and advanced). They could also organise a national league table of dancers with rankings, if people were interested in having one. They could represent the interests of all MJ dancers - maybe by providing information on dance-related matters (maybe a list of dance physio and other therapists), print cool t-shirts, negotiate discounts with dance events, and generally be good eggs...

OK, so I'm half joking, but I'm also half serious. I think dancers could benefit from having a voice, independently of the ceroc, leroc and other organisations. I particularly think that competitive dancers would benefit from having a voice in relation to the competition organisers - but we competitors are in a very small minority when compared with the number of MJ dancers in the UK. What do people think? If enough people think I'm not completely off my rocker, I could look into it further (look at what the BDF and other organisations do for their members).

Not off your rocker at all, the competitors lobby is a great idea and one could get that going easier than a total dance lobby because the numbers to deal with initially would be smaller.

The competitors at the few competitions I have been to all appear to be having similar complaints , comp categories , music speed and changing facilities etc. of the organisers. But this is always after the event and then everybody trudges on to the next Comp, muttering then again having similar complaints.

Does anybody listen???

All for one and one for all.

It would take someone with drive and devotion to get it off the ground. If there is a ground swell of opinion for it are you volunteering?

[Gadget]

~snip~could lobby for things like transparent judging criteria, standardised categories ~ organise a national league table of dancers with rankings, ~ represent the interests of all MJ dancers ~ providing information on dance-related matters (maybe a list of dance physio and other therapists), print cool t-shirts, negotiate discounts with dance events, and generally be good eggs...~ I think dancers could benefit from having a voice, independently of the ceroc, leroc and other organisations. I particularly think that competitive dancers would benefit from having a voice in relation to the competition organisers - but we competitors are in a very small minority when compared with the number of MJ dancers in the UK.

So what does this forum do?

- It is (relatively) independent - views are aired from every MJ corner no matter what the organisation.
- There have been discounts for forum members to various events in the past; it's up to the organisers to arrange this, but perhaps a bit of pro-active marketing of the forum to competition organisers may help.
- there is all manor of dance related information here
- people make their views known about competitions, judging and events.
- there are numerous discussion topics about definitions; beginner, intermediate, advanced, modern jive... we still haven't come to a unified conclusion.
- you want a cool forum T-shirt? see Emma.
- you want a good egg? see <strike>Andy</strike>, <strike>Chris</strike>, <strike>Mikey</strike>, <strike>Smurf</strike>, erm... well, I'm sure there are some here

The only thing I see absent is a "league table". How would you work it? You can't just award points for places, since the level of competition may be harder... I see another thread looming.
Although perhaps a space in the user page for results and qualifications would be quite cool.

Back on-topic, competitions are all about seeing who is best and seeing how you compare to everyone else; a level indicator for your dancing. Correct? Although there is an element of "fun", this (rarely) has anything to do with the actual dancing or ability of the dancers - which is what the competition is judging.
So you need to find a way to compare dancers and rate them against each other - if you want to judge the 'visual look' of the dance, then you have outside people watching. This is how every dance is judged. But MJ is not every dance. {IMHO} MJ is about the 'feel' of the dance; the connection with your partner; the emersion in the music. Can you rely on "outside" witnesses to see this? Will this be judged higher than flashy moves and 'crowd pleasers'?

The actual schematics of how the competition is run is fairly un-important: there are several methods and styles of competition, in the end it's about how you are judged; how you perform is open to their interpretation and where you are placed is dependant on their decision.
The best competitions try and make sure that there is nothing to detract from how you perform and that the judging is fair; if you have these two premise at the heart of the organisation process, then everything else should fall into place.

[Divissima]

What do they do in Oz...

Don't they have bronze silver and gold depenmding upon experience or something - I was told ages ago but have forgotten.

Perhaps our Antipodean Forumites could enlighten us...???

I think it depends on the competition - I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if the categorisations differ from one to another. The Ceroc Australia competition last year had categories something like this:

Beginner
Rising Star
Intermediate Championships
Advanced
Open

But there might have been a couple I've missed out. It was particularly notable that where in the UK we have one category - intermediate - they had three to cover the same spectrum of ability and experience. When we entered we had to provide details of our number of years dancing, any competitions entered - which category, how far we progressed, if we placed, etc. There was more form filling but we felt the categories were fair.

[Gordon J Pownall]

I think it depends on the competition - I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if the categorisations differ from one to another. The Ceroc Australia competition last year had categories something like this:

Beginner
Rising Star
Intermediate Championships
Advanced
Open

But there might have been a couple I've missed out. It was particularly notable that where in the UK we have one category - intermediate - they had three to cover the same spectrum of ability and experience. When we entered we had to provide details of our number of years dancing, any competitions entered - which category, how far we progressed, if we placed, etc. There was more form filling but we felt the categories were fair.

I know their classes are also graded as to which class you should / could / can attend as well...???

[Andy McGregor]

I don't know what to think. On the one hand, competitions should be about finding the best dancers. On the other hand they should be a rip-roaring fun day out.

I think that MJ is a social dance and competitions should be treated as fun first and serious second.

Speaking from my own point of view, I can not imagine that the things I've done at recent competitions would have been permitted at Ballroom competitions. I'd probably have been banned - but at Weston our double trouble team won the Champion of Champions prize. If I'd minced across the judges table dressed as a lap-dancer at a ballroom competition I'd have been escorted outside by security

But, as everyone knows, we won the day

[serious mode] Some people will take MJ seriously and competitions are the place to do that. But, I think the most serious aspect of a competition is to make sure the competitors know what they're being judged on and how those scores are calculated to find the winners - at the moment the mighty Ceroc in London will not tell anyone how they do it This needs to be fixed before we can think about anything new. [/serious mode]

.. and they need a decent venue. And they need to stop treating their competitors like they have no feelings*.

*This year at the Ceroc London comp they wouldn't announce the people that had been promoted until just before the heat. That meant that you were waiting, in costume, next to the dance floor, only to not hear your number called, how demoralising was that? And, at the last moment, they changed the order of the heats so you were probably in the wrong costume anyway

And I didn't even get my bottle of 'Old Git' wine.

[rant mode]So, 'How should competitions evolve?' There is such a thing as survival of the fittest. Is the Ceroc championships fit to survive while it treats its competitors like the hired help, poor venue, keeping competitors in the dark, changing things at the last minute. Sure it was OK for the spectators but the competitors had paid more and had been served badly IMHO.[/rant mode]

So, I'd like to see more competition between competitions. I'd like to see so many competitions that people running them have to treat competitors like human beings or have no competitors at all. No music so fast you can't dance to it properly (the organisers call this 'challenging'); transparent judging; categories so clearly defined that we don't have to argue among ourselves about which is the right one; a timetable that can be kept to; enough judges that the whole competition isn't delayed if one or two are late; and finally, venues that RobC likes

[Andy McGregor]

Did I say all that?

[Andy McGregor]

Did I say all that?

I've just received negative rep for the above post the comment was 'no content' - it was unsigned

I thought there might be others who didn't get it so I just thought I'd explain. The 'did I say all that?' referred to the massive post above which was full of content, much of it contentious.

IMHO giving someone negative rep for 'no content' is getting the rep system wrong. I think you should give negative rep for someone saying something rude or agressive or for being a complete prat. About 10% of my rep is negative and it's usually been constructive(ish) and I've welcomed the honesty. I don't usually complain about negative rep, but this one is just nasty - it doesn't add anything to anyone's day.

Rant over.

N.B. Hopefully people will see this post has a purpose. That purpose is to add to the debate on the use of the reputation system. I chose this thread to show this example because it's where I made the post that got the, IMHO, inappropriate negative rep.

[bigdjiver]

... IMHO giving someone negative rep for 'no content' is getting the rep system wrong. ...

Off topic

[Andy McGregor]

Off topic

Now I know who you are, why pick on me for going off topic? Everyone does it, that's how conversations go. The moderators are there to decide what is completely off-topic - and they do a great job