Moving on up
Hi,
Looking for some advice and opinions. I would have posted in "intermediates" but there seems to be nothing happening there !
I love the social aspects and physical sensation of dancing.
I often get complimented by beginners on my clear lead.
However, I am dissatisfied. Why?
I feel my range of moves is too limited and "simplistic" and I envy (I admit it) those dancers who dance with real "style". I'm happy to dance with beginners but those intermediate women I dance with ALWAYS give the feeling of not being involved in the dance and just can't wait to get back to a technically and stylistically better male partner.
Now "style" can vary, and I need to find my own style, but where do I start? I can keep on dancing and not getting anywhere or do I take lessons? Which ones ? (I am London based). If I was to pick a name that described the style I am looking for it would be "Gene Kelly" rather than "Fred Astaire" (aim high dear boy).
Do I change dance "Code" e.g. move to Swing or Lindy? I have tried Lindy but the hop, skip and jump and the endless "Crouching Tiger, Hidden flat cap" stance just irritates me. Sorry, personal prejudice. However, when it's a fast beat track, it's great to see the "bounce" and almost "flying" of some Lindy moves.
I have taken up Arg Tango which is a complete contrast to MJ. However, to dance Arg Tango well, requires LOTS of trust by the woman (aha THAT old chestnut) as the physical connection between the partners in the embrace needs to be close so the leaders intention (that's where the man wants to lead) is clear.
Sorry for the ramble. Basically, what next?
Ta
Clive
Have you been to a weekender?Originally Posted by Clive Long
.
Sorry for the ramble. Basically, what next?
Ta Clive
Camber, Bogner, Southport etc?
If not, that's what I would recommend - the variety of styles, abilities and characters all gathered in one place should give you a boost and plenty of ideas for new stuff to work on.
And get yourself to Blackpool for the Champs, again, a whole day or more of inspiration, and this one with extra sequins!
C
Great first post, Clive. What signs are you picking up that make you feel that intermediate women are not involved in the dance? Have you tried asking any of them about their response? I agree that it is rather discouraging when you get a less than positive response, but it is the equal responsibility of both dancers to make the dance successful, not just yours. I would pick a suitably approachable follower and ask for some feedback. Or tell them that you are practising something specific and ask for some help. I know that if I was feeling a bit, heaven forbid, uninvolved I would certainly wake up and make a lot more effort to be alert and supportive if I felt that I was being trusted with that role.
You don't say how long you've been dancing for, but if you give a clear lead to beginners that sounds like a pretty positive foundation to me.
An interesting post - and all good advice!
I'm impressed by the different dance forms you have tried, including Lindy Hop and Argentine tango in addition to MJ. As has been said, at one of the big MJ-based dance weekenders like Camber, Bognor or Southport you will see lots dancers of varying ability and styles and be able to dry classes in Lindy, tango and many others. This should help you decide where you want to concentrate - MJ, or something else. I would also suggest taking time to watch some of the more experienced dancers at one of these weekends (or in London, try Hipsters) and find a few with a style that appeals to you. This will give you ideas for moves and musicality, and how to deal with music of different styles and tempo.
But really, it sounds as though you are well on the way and it may just be that you need more experience of different partners and different MJ styles that only practice can bring.
Clive, You are already doing the very best thing that you can, and that is to ask questions. So many dancers are dissatisfied but are prepared to go on for years being poor intermediates because they will not ask questions and when given instruction in classes will not put any effort into putting it into practice.
Since you are asking the questions here is my own bit of advice (which of course you can take or leave as you desire). In no particular order
1) Learn to dance as a follower as well as a leader. I know it will take a lot of guts and you will have to run the gauntlet of unhelpful jibbing from the blokes in a class. Tell the teacher what you are planning to do and get them to explain it to the class that you have no other agenda apart from getting better at dancing. So how will this help your dancing? For a start it will get you started on the ability as a man to be able to spin (which will add texture to your dance range) and that will teach you about balance. Secondly, only when you have experienced from the followers side what bouncy, floppy, waggly and violent carnage is meted out by many leaders can you recognise those things that you are responsible for in your own leading. Lastly you will find that to follow you must let go of any desire to anticipate, even a bad lead. You will find that you are wholly dependant on your leader and how much trust that follower is putting in you to not push them off balance. Once you understand that level of trust that is being placed in you, you become much more careful not to abuse that trust.
2) Go to classes that teach you technique rather than moves. Since you live in London that means Nigel and Nina, and Amir Giles. Find their websites and email them to get them to inform you when they are specifically teaching technique classes. Attend each of the classes at least three times because you will not pick up everything the first time. Once you have the techniques then you become a human sponge for moves. You will learn many moves and forget ones that you don’t like.
3) Find some of the more interesting music (PM me for suggestions if you like) and learn to tap you finger (only your finger – we don’t want you developing a bouncy anything else) along to the music in the car. The most important thing to gain from this is to understand the structure of the music – how long an introduction might be, where the breaks occur, how long the breaks are, and how to be able to recognise the beat of a piece of music. Once you can do this then you will find it difficult to dance out of time with a piece of music. NEVER dance through a break. If you dance through a break then you are just not listening to what the music is saying. Once you begin stopping for breaks you pick up an instinct about when the music is signalling to you that a break is coming.
4) Learn to stand up straight. Think you do? Press you bum and shoulders up against a wall and if the back of your head doesn’t touch the wall then you aren’t up straight. If your vertical axis is not straight then every time you turn or spin you will be disorientated and you will then have to deal with that before starting anything else. Look around many dance floors and see the number of hunchbacks out there. It looks dreadful and it doesn’t help you do anything apart from checking your shoes are clean.
5) Learn to rock step. Take a piece of string 30cm long and put a blob of blu tack on a wall at your waist height hold one of the string and stick the other end to the blu tack. Do a rock step. Did the string stay tight and is it still connected to the blu tack? If not, then you have just pulled you follower off balance (good followers will not throw themselves backwards and need you hand to hang onto). Do what you like with your body during a rock step but leave your hand where it was. You are inviting your partner to do something, not physically moving her.
6) Learn new dance moves as if they are Ti Chi. Do them slowly and on your own. When you learn a dance move slowly you just have to do smoothly and you understand that smoothness and flow are important so that you can dance the move and only the move. When you come to do the move with your follower then your lead is smooth, seamless and contains nothing to confuse them.
7) Dance with the best women that your courage will allow and ask them for feedback on your dancing at the start.
Sorry it has been a long post but I can touch type and I just got carried away with all the things that I know now that I wish someone had told me 5 years ago.
Happy dancing.
Chef: The danged "spread it" message stopped you getting some rep.
Agree with Chef's post, all very good advice.
I particularly enjoy walking about wearing a walkman and freezing on the breaks, I have to even in a crowded shop
For followers I too would recommend a reversal - learn to lead, so you can feel the gripping and wrenching and anticipating that happens. And notice how it frees your mind to get into the music when your follower is smooth and not anticipating anything.
Ask the best follower you dare to dance. Try and work out what makes them feel so good. Ask the best lead you know for feedback. If the lead and follow are in the same room maybe even ask explicilty what is the difference in feel between yourself and your favourite follower...
That's what I did anyway
Another way for followers to improve is to be led by a good female and ask her for feedback. If she's good and can communicate well she can put you straight and show you what needs to be adjusted. When I say good female I have to include Andy Mc Gregor of course
Girl Power
ZW
Hi Clive, Good post.
It sounds to me like you've made the first step towards developing style - which is realising it exists - a lot of people don't even get this far!
I think the advice given here is excellent, but if your moves are "simplistic and limited" then there are several things you can do about it. One is to go to lots of classes as often as possible, this includes weeknights, weekenders, freestyles, workshops, the lot. You can also write down notes on moves that you like, so you don't forget them. The other thing you can do, is watch the guys that you think look the best, and if they do a move you particularly like, ask them if they can explain it to you. Even if you find this a bit intimidating it's worth it - if you think about it, you'd be flattered if someone complimented you in this way, so why shouldn't they be?
As various people have already said, it's worth asking the girls what they think of your dancing, especially the good ones. They may also be able to teach you new moves (any girls in your venue that lead are especially helpful for this).
Also, if you like Gene Kelly's style see if you can buy some of the films and analyse what he does and how he does it - how he moves his arms or his head or his shoulders, then take it away and practice it in front of a mirror. You may not end up looking exactly the same, but if you can get something of his grace or smoothness, that will improve your dancing anyway!
Good luck, and enjoy it! Trish
If you had posted there, then there would be.More often it is the "beginner's corner" that has tumble-weeds blowing through it.
Do you know what "style" is? Can you point to someone on the dance floor and say "they have it; they don't."? If you can, then try and discover what exactly you are picking up on in the dance...Now "style" can vary, and I need to find my own style, but where do I start? I can keep on dancing and not getting anywhere or do I take lessons? Which ones ? (I am London based). If I was to pick a name that described the style I am looking for it would be "Gene Kelly" rather than "Fred Astaire" (aim high dear boy).
- Try covering your ears and watching them without sound
- Try watching how their hips are in relation to each other
- Try to see how a simple turn is executed; the timing of it, whien it starts, when it slows, how it goes with the music
- Try to isolate each part; the head movement, the shoulders, the back... the feet.
It's been a while since I took the luxury of simply watching the dance floor, but this must be the first step. If not the dance floor, then films or music videos that contain elements you think of as 'stylish'.
Do this for both the "stylish" and the ones tht you want to avoid looking like: I have learned just as much from trying to see why somthing didn't look right as I have trying to discover what made it look right for another couple.
If you jsut have a vague notion of what you want, the workshops and classes may refine it for you. If you have a better idea, then they may be able to develop it and give you something more.
Thanks all for fantastic, thoughtful and detailed posts.
I will have my work cut out.
Any lady want to lead? Take me, take me, I am your slave.
Clive
Read this a few times, not sure I understand. How do I lead my partner to rock step without moving my hand?
I am mostly trying to get over the point that the leaders body can be doing whatever it wants as long is it is seperate from what his hand is leading. Suppose you lead the woman backwards to start a rockstep and at the same time you take a rockstep. If your hand now goes backwards with you your hand is now pulling the woman forwards at exactly the time that the woman is going backwards. You have effectlively given two signals (go backwards, go forwards) at almost the same time. Very confusing for the woman.
If I can break it down then the sequence would be.
On beat 7 you establish tension in the womans arm by pulling it slightly (about 3 cm usually works for me) and the woman responsd by her muscles in her arm making tension and now you have established a lead and follow connection between you both.
on beat 8 you tilt your hand very slighlty to one side to get the woman to place her weight mostly on one foot. I almost always move the woman to put most of her weight on her left foot because I want her to make her rock step backwards with her right foot (which now has much less of her body weight on it).
On beat 1 I push the back of my fingers into the palm of the womans hand about 3-4cm and wait. There is little more that you can do at this point apart from wait. The connection has been established, the womans weight has been placed onto the foot that you don't want her to move and then you have signalled that you want her to start a rock step. She should now respond to that signal by taking her rock step backwards (WHILE LEAVING HER HAND WHERE IT WAS) and naturally as she finishes her rock step her weight is coming back to a neutral postition. You may then want to lead her towards you, but then again you may want to lead her to the left or right. If the woman rocksteps back pulling on your hand because she has taken her weight backwards and now NEEDS the support of your hand to stop her falling backwards her weight will then fall forwards and the only option you have is to do a move that now stops the woman falling forwards.
Lead and follow could and should be possible using only one finger from each partner. If you need any more than that you are not transmitting signals you are using it for support.
Some followers are slow to respond to signals and the leaders give them really big signals in the hope that they will respond. You are not doing your follower any favours. Really big signals just end up pulling them off balance and they never learn to respond to the smaller signals. It is just the same as when a woman leads a man that is trying to learn. Sure the woman pushing and pulling the man gets the job done but it doesn't teach the man how to lead.
A lead needs to be small and deliberate and not pull the woman off balance. So when you signal a rockstep that is all you do - signal. Once you have signaled the move lead the hand still and let the woman complete what you have asked of her.
To really appreciate this you need to find a really understanding and very good follower who will allow you to experiment with her doing this while she is blindfolded. These women are worth their weight in gold. It is also worth putting on a blindfold and being lead yourself. It makes you appreciate how bouncing an wagglings hands just make life for the foller so confusing.
Happy dancing
Last edited by Chef; 5th-January-2005 at 11:18 AM.
Chef,
It sounds as though you have inwardly digested everything from Saturday's Nigel and Nina Advanced Smooth Jive Workshop and reproduced it immaculately !
I remember when you used to dance at Canterbury. At one stage you used to join the ladies in the line up and take the followers role. I'm convinced that this is a beneficial thing to do to understand all aspects of the dance and advance your dancing. It's a shame more people don't do this.
I guess that others don't have the same dedication and/or ambition as you and just want a bit of fun.
I have done this class with Nigel and Nina many times because they teach exactly the same underlying core of fundementals in every lesson that they teach. I have found it worthwhile doing their classes many times because these fundementals are the very bedrock that all dancing sits on. With no foundations everything that sits on top is fragile and liable to fall apart. Although I HEAR the same in each lesson I find that I UNDERSTAND a little more each time.
Many others do just want to have fun. I would never knock them. I just find that I have more fun the better I dance. I am a scientist and have a low boredom threshold so for me my life is a constant hunt for those things that I don't yet know.
The worst thing that I find is that women can dance with different men and get a different dance experience every time. Men get to dance their repetiore every time they dance even though they are dancing with different women the experience is mostly the same. My problem is that I am now bored of dancing with myself. So now I have to look for new experiences and challenges. Recently I had the wonderful experience of dancing as part of an ensemble in The Big Love Show. A major learning experience for 2004.
Happy dancing
Re: Moving on up
I thought that the first half of the workshop was mainly about leading and following and I would like to see something similar taught to the beginners in Ceroc classes.
Currently, so many ladies tend to learn the moves rather than the man's signals and therefore end up anticipating the moves. I even found this amongst the ladies who attended the workshop !
I agree with you "I have more fun the better I dance". It is the constant effort and challenge to improve my dancing that keeps me going
I do wonder about some of the other dancers who have been dancing rather longer than me but still seem to be spending most of their time doing "beginners moves" and not really progressing. That sort of lack of progress is what would be most likely to make me consider giving up.
As you so rightly say, the dance experience for leaders and followers is very different. I'm sure that many leaders end up doing the same routine time after time after time ...
I'm not sure that many of the followers realise what a fortunate position they are in.
Good luck with your new challenges for this year. Do you have any specific aims or ambitions in mind ?
I would love to choreograph a routine to a specific track. I have tried this before but my partner spends the time saying this and that won't work while not offering anything constructive.
I would love to find an ariels partner because I have some ideas for things that I have never seen done on the MJ scene before. This is a bit of a problem because there are few women out there that have the desire to do this stuff in the first place, and even less that are in a position to be able devote the training time for it. I have tried to do it with Dawn but ariels are the only things that we end up arguing about.
PM me if you want to chat about this a bit more. I don't think we should annoy the good people of this forum with anymore of this increasingly off topic chat.
What if this was true ? That generally my 'expereince' was generally the same and it didnt matter who I danced with.
The expereince is of course totally different each time or at least most of the time.
If I dance with better female dancer I can learn from them.
I'm interested in what you're expecting to learn from them. Personally, I have improved my musicality partly by dancing with partners who were good at it and hijacked the lead if necessary. Good partners have also given me more ideas for styling and things to do in breaks.
Re: Moving on up
Exactly !
One of the key things I learned fairly recently was how to lead the lady to stay in the same place while you moved round her. I don't remember if it was from a workshop or observation, but it was certainly Marc that I gleamed it from.
It adds a huge element of controll to your lead as well as opening up a whole new sub-section of moves that can now be done.
"Semi-circle and both step back" Isn't that how most Ceroc classes begin? I know that very few men actually lead this bit (and even fewer get a chance toSuppose you lead the woman backwards to start a rockstep and at the same time you take a rockstep. If your hand now goes backwards with you your hand is now pulling the woman forwards at exactly the time that the woman is going backwards. You have effectlively given two signals (go backwards, go forwards) at almost the same time. Very confusing for the woman.), but that's all it is.
all this "...tilt your hand very slighlty to one side to get the woman to place her weight mostly on one foot..." is (IMHO) over-thinking it and relying too much on your partner understanding that the signal of a slight tilt should relate to her footwork. To lead the same thing, I would probably have a slight tilt to the hand and a slight downward curve to the lead on the extension, but it's almost irrelevant if you are leading the lady wrong-footed:
In this, I think its all about timing of the move and the preperation before hand.
- If the lady is stepping forward with the same foot that you want her to step back again on, you have to give slight pressure and slow her in the lead before the back foot comes forward.
- If you want to lead them for the back foot, you have to wait untill the foot comes forward before leading it away again.
If either of these leads is too soon, the lady will feel rushed and half complete the prior step. If they are led too late, then the lady will have transfered the weight to the wrong foot and have to transfer it back before moving it again.
As a wise teacher once said - if something goes wrong, it's probably not that movement, but the one before it and the lead into it. {Franck}
The connection and tension being 3cm, 5cm, or .7843 of an inch is irrelevant as well: the amount of tension required is enough that you can feel the lady and they can feel you. Enough that a release of tension does not cause seperation. I have danced with ladies that have a feather light, subtle, minimalist connection and ladies that need a firmer, directed lead to keep them on course.
The change between tension and compession is normally done with a light pull so that the lead is given to continue to move in that direction with the absence of any lead untill the connection is re-established. In this space between leads, the and hold is normally changed.
Changing from compression to tension is rare since it's normally used for a preperation to a spin; most leads are through 'pulling' the lady in the direction you want her to move - 'pushing' is harder to convey the lead and harder for the lady to follow. The change is through a light shove in the direction the lady should continue to move, then in the space between leads, you must catch up, over-take, collect and gently regain tension (or swap hands). Perhaps this is another reason it's seldom done.
The lead is constant, there is no 'waiting' unless you lead the lady to remain in the same place or remove the lead to let her do her own thing. The connection is constant, the response from the follower is constant.
The 'size' of the lead provokes the size of response - your movements are buffered and interpreted by the lady; as long as you are aware of how big/small your lead is (mirror, video, feedback...) it can be used in any size. Generally it is said "small leads" are better, (and from an asthetic point of view, it may be correct) but it is more about controll than size - being aware of the lady on the other end of the lead and how she responds to it.A lead needs to be small and deliberate and not pull the woman off balance. So when you signal a rockstep that is all you do - signal. Once you have signaled the move lead the hand still and let the woman complete what you have asked of her.
{I am aware of how it should be, but have yet managed to overlay ideals onto reality
The term 'deliberate' is perhaps a bit strict; it is the means to an end - leading the same move with different ladies will result in a different lead. The path the lead follows is determined by what response you want from the lady and what the feedback from the 'connection' is like. If her connection is drawing the lead off your intended path, then you should firm-up against it or compensate with the lead, or simply change it to the path of least resistance. Again, it's awareness and controll.
You guide the lady, not pull her; she is following her hand, all you have to do is move the hand and she will move; you don't have to move her whole body.
Another perl of wisdom from a teacher; on dual handed leads, the hand closest to you is the lead, the other is for ballance and re-inforcement. {DavidB}
"Lead" and "Connection" are what I have spent most of my dancing time improving and studying: I can adjust my lead to just about anyone and have never suffered an injury from a poor connection. (Whether this is luck or the quality of ladies up here I don't know.) Unfortunatly I have had the missfortune to discover a few heavy-handed habbits and poor floorcraft mistakes that have resulted in the ladies taking the pain for my mistakes. {}
My arm is generally too high on close or 'suprise' wraps so that I trap the lady's spare arm. I have yet to master distinguishing from a wrap and a lady's half nelson lead. I am too strong on some turns, especially doubles. I am very 'vocal' with using my body to lead (big shrugs and twists to release/remove hands). I can't figure out how to lead a half-turn properly. I don't use my 'supporting arm' (or hand) when leading from a framed 'ballroom' hold. I have only just started on being able to lead from a waist/shoulder connection...By the time I master all of these, then I will probably have discovered another batch of things that need work on.
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