Is Ceroc a dance or an organisation?

[Franck]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Originally posted by DavidB
Ceroc allowed the name to be used by anyone else

Actually, I think that's the best reason for not calling it a style that has been put forward.

Ceroc is keeping the name to protect its goodwill / reputation and standards. There are already many 'Cow-boy teachers' out there who run very poor nights, and given the chance they would use the name Ceroc, bringing all other nights into disrepute.
Ceroc is (rightly) proud of its training course and standards across the board, it would be a shame to jeopardize all that.
I can't see either Hoover or Dyson allowing other companies to re-badge their vaccuum cleaners either, even if in the real world, people will still call a Dyson imitation made by another brand a 'Dyson', or even a Hoover!

Whether people decide to call the style of dancing Ceroc or not is out of our remit / spheres of influence, as long as no better name comes forward, people will use the most logical one (be it Ceroc, Leroc or otherwise) depending on what the largest presence is.

Franck.

[TheTramp]

Sorry Franck,

I wasn't intending critiscism in this, and I understand the reasons for ceroc to protect it's name (in the same way that other companies would do exactly the same).

This was, to me, just the reason for not calling it a dance style, rather than an organisation promoting this particular style.

While I have my own views on ceroc, I would agree that they have been instrumental in bringing many people into dance, that would previously have never thought that they would be interested (including myself). I also agree that their standard format of a nights dancing is very sucessful.

Steve

[Franck]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I wasn't intending critiscism in this, and I understand the reasons for ceroc to protect it's name (in the same way that other companies would do exactly the same).

This was, to me, just the reason for not calling it a dance style, rather than an organisation promoting this particular style.

No worries, I did not take it as a criticism at all
I was keen to clarify the point you raised however, as Ceroc (the dance and the philosophy) are subjects very close to my heart
I probably sound evangelical most of the time, but I do believe the hype!

There are many things that could be improved with Ceroc (the dance and the organization), and I and other franchisees are working with Ceroc HQ to improve Ceroc on a day to day basis.

Anyway, thanks for your words, and I 'do' hope you get the opportunity to grace the Ceroc nights down South with your presence once more

Franck.

[TheTramp]

I 'do' hope you get the opportunity to grace the Ceroc nights down South with your presence once more

I'm not quite sure that most people down here (or anywhere else for that matter) see my presence as being particularly graceful!! But thanks for the compliment

Steve

[Dance Demon]

I am in total agreement with Floyd. However having gone to various different styles of jive class, I now find myself incorporating all the different styles into my own dancing, which can be a bit awkward when dancing with a dedicated Ceroc taught dancer. Back in the good old days!!!!! both Leroc and Ceroc were referred to as French Jive. The term Modern Jive seems to have replaced this recently, possibly because there are so many other organisations now teaching the dance to Modern music. I take on board the point about rock 'n' roll, which is my preferrence, and I have no quibble with being called a jiver as originally I attended Leroc and Ceroc to learn how to Jive. It is worth noting that the original Jive style was Lindy Hop or Jitterbug. All of the other Jive syles have evolved from there. It's all a matter of personal taste. If your preference is to dance to chart music or "handbag music" then Ceroc is definately for you.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
If your preference is to dance to chart music or "handbag music" then Ceroc is definately for you.

And if you want to dance to cool jazz and the like Ceroc can still definitely be for you Though it has its downsides, I've found Ceroc to be a very adaptable dance style ... maybe more so than the classic swing dances. (IMHO of course)

Question, don't you find the Lindy style dancing a bit restrictive in that it appears that it can only be used to Swing music ... or am I doing it a great disservice? ... honest question ... not being ODA for once.

[Dance Demon]

you have a valid point there, and there are a lot of swing dancers who will only lindy to traditional swing e.g. Basie Miller Goodman etc. Others prefer the more modern style swing E.G Indigo Swing, The Jive Aces. My own preference is for the more roots R'n'B style of Amos Milburn, Joe Turner, T Bone Walker, which is a more universal style of music as it lets you dance just about any style of Jive, and makes the lindy style moves look more dynamic.

[Floyd]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
If your preference is to dance to chart music or "handbag music" then Ceroc is definately for you.

Originally posted by Gus
I've found Ceroc to be a very adaptable dance style

The above quotations highlight the problem - the word Ceroc is being used in two different ways (I think - apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick)

I understand Dance Demon's comment to mean that if you like dancing to chart music then Ceroc,the event, is ideal because most of the music played at Ceroc events is, sadly, modern chart stuff.

Gus, on the other hand, is using the word Ceroc to mean the dance form taught by Ceroc. That dance form is indeed very adaptable and can be danced to any music with an even number of beats to the bar (i.e. not 3/4 etc.). My preference is to use elements of what I was taught at Ceroc for jiving to jive/swing/r'n'r music - it takes the dance form onto another plane instead of just going through the motions which is how dancing to chart music feels (to me).

Incidentally, the dance taught by Ceroc is not unique in that it can be danced to any even timed music. Any dance form designed to be danced to even timed music can be danced to any even timed music. Any dance designed to be danced to 3/4 music can be danced to any 3/4 music. etc.

So - you can jive to Mozart's Eine Kleine Nacht Musik and you can waltz to Peter Spence's post-punk, 3/4 time, classic 'Winter of Discontent'.

Of course, some music is more appropriate for certains styles of dance than others... which takes me back to my comment on the music which I prefer to jive to....

[Will]

The answer to the title of the thread is that Ceroc is both a dance and an organisation (or to be more accurate, a business).

Ceroc isn't Modern Jive. Modern Jive is a descriptive word of Ceroc, rather like calling Salsa 'hespanic jive' or something like that. Like Gus said earlier, the term 'Modern Jive' was born long after 'Ceroc'.

Basically what happened was that when James Cronin invented Ceroc, he was able to copywrite the name, but not the dance style (It's nigh on impossible to copywrite a dance style). Hence, people were able to replicate the style, but not the name (at least in the UK), so naturally a common descriptive name evolved - e.g. Modern Jive.

To use the Hoover / Vacuum Clearner analogy is actually a bit off the mark. To correct this analogy:- Imagine the first company to come up with a vacuum cleaner patented the name 'Vacuum Cleaner' instead of Hoover. Now imagine another company starts to manufacture the same basic device, but because it can't use the name 'Vacuum Cleaner' calls it's product a 'suction powered cleaning device' (i.e Modern Jive).

I know that there is some confusion about the roots of Ceroc. i.e. "How can Ceroc an original dance style if they've been doing it in France for years and someone just brought it over to the UK in 1980?" Well to answer that question for yourself, just go to France and dance (as I have). You'll find that it is Significantly different. To make the point, I've been doing Ceroc for a number of years, but when to France to do French Jive I stuggled terribly. However, I danced with this one girl, and as soon as we started to dance, she said to me that she had been in England for 3 months and done something called 'Ceroc' in London, and that she thought that I was a Ceroc dancer. It really is so blantantly different to what they do in France.

Hope this helps

[Floyd]

Originally posted by Will
The answer to the title of the thread is that Ceroc is both a dance and an organisation (or to be more accurate, a business).

I don't see how the dance can be called Ceroc when the dance exists in its own right outside Ceroc (the business) e.g. most of the moves can be seen in very old dance-related film clips.

Ceroc (the business) has 'simply' produced a slick and successful package of which the various moves (which have existed for a very long time) form a part.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Floyd


I don't see how the dance can be called Ceroc when the dance exists in its own right outside Ceroc (the business) e.g. most of the moves can be seen in very old dance-related film clips.

Sorry but I have to disagree with this. As Will pinted out what has taken place is that a style of dancing ... the original Le Roc ... was taken from France ... reformed, and modified significantly THEN re-introduced to the UK. Over the last 20 years or so a number of moves jave been added which have been 'borrowed' from Lindy, Salsa, Hip Hop ... but what is taught is under the umbrealla 'style' name of Ceroc.

Ceroc is not unique in that ... and I take on board all the valid points raised by DaveB ..... but Ceroc is as original as Lindy ... that too is a hybrid, developing dance form ... so why shoud Ceroc be seen as being any diferent. If someone can define where the boundries of Ceroc are then please do!

There has been some comments about taking Ceroc then modifying it to take it to another plane ... but isn't that just taking Ceroc and doing it well?? Watch the top Cerocers ... V&L, H, Paul Tavanausa, Tubsy and Janine .... thats Ceroc that they do, just with their particular idiom. Agreed that a lot of the moves have origins in preceeding dance styles ... but many more do not!


So ... the point is??? who cares ....but I do think that people should seperate Ceroc the organisation from the dance. Ceroc organisation led the way to make partner dance sovcially acceptable and has been more succesfull than any other form of dance I've seen (I stand to be corrected) ... and many of the Modern Jive organisations trying to make their own mark are simply breakaways from Ceroc and its franchises.

[Scot]

Originally posted by Gus

and many of the Modern Jive organisations trying to make their own mark are simply breakaways from Ceroc and its franchises.

I have to agree with Gus on this one most of the Modern Jive organisations that I am aware of have had their orgins in Ceroc directly Eg Mojive, Blitz or indirectly having learned to Dance via Ceroc. It is therefore hard to see how this could not have influenced them in their own endeavours.

One of the things that always amazes me is that a lot of the people who started in Ceroc but then subsequently move on to something more technical or start up their own brand of Jive invariably criticize the very thing that got them dancing in the first place. In the extreme they become evangelistic about the difference between say Leroc and Ceroc where as in reality what they are in actual fact doing is Ceroc
Obviously those that move on to something more technical are not. However for those that I have seen that have moved on to swing etc when things go wrong they invariable revert to Ceroc to keep the dance going until they can reformulate what it was they were doing in the first place.

As regards hand bag music I take exception to that. Ceroc attempts to play a balance of music to cater to all tastes. Like many I prefer the older type music and if it were my choice ÒBrown Eyed GirlÓ and ÒMan I feel Like a WomenÓ would never see the light of day. However the floor is never busier than when these tracks are playing. From this I would conclude that my personal tastes in music are somewhat in the minority.

Ceroc has never claimed to be a technical dance. However it does have its own moves and it does have its own unique style much replicated by many. There was a tendency some time ago to join moves together and call them new moves. However these sorts of moves are no longer accepted by Ceroc and are in fact are being actively weeded out in favour of more original moves. Ceroc does of course take inspiration from other more Technical Dance styles but hey how the hell did dancing get started in the first place? it evolved!

Oops sorry got a bid carried away there

[Gus]

Originally posted by Scot
Like many I prefer the older type music and if it were my choice ÒBrown Eyed GirlÓ and ÒMan I feel Like a WomenÓ would never see the light of day.

Way to go Scott ... BUT ... "Brown Eyed Girl" IS older type music isn't it?? When I was a spotty youth listening to my Heavy Rock albums all those years ago, even then Messr Van Morrison was regarded as being from the time of the dinasours!


.......though I do agree with you about Shania Twain

[Scot]

Originally posted by Gus


Way to go Scott ... BUT ... "Brown Eyed Girl" IS older type music isn't it?? When I was a spotty youth listening to my Heavy Rock albums all those years ago, even then Messr Van Morrison was regarded as being from the time of the dinasours!


.......though I do agree with you about Shania Twain

Ah but is it "Hand Bag Music"

[TheTramp]

who started in Ceroc but then subsequently move on to something more technical or start up their own brand of Jive invariably criticize the very thing that got them dancing in the first place

Spot on Scot.

One of the main reasons that I've not moved on with Lindy is the supercilious attitude towards jive of a number of people (but by no means all) who do Lindy.

I was at beach boogie in 2001, and at one of the evening dances, a lady who I'd never met before asked me for a dance. After about 3 seconds, I realised that she wanted to lindy, so I got her in close, and said that I didn't do that. She looked at me like I was something that had crawled out from under a rock (no comments please), and said in a vastly superior tone of voice, 'Oh, you're a cerocer are you'.

Of course, it took me about another 3 seconds to work out that she was actually quite bad, and didn't even have the beat (a fact I confirmed a little later with a friend of mine who is a rather good Lindy dancer).

So, I've now started doing salsa instead. And having a great time. Course, the slightly more sexy style does sort of suit me!

Steve

[Gadget]

This thread makes interesting reading - thought I would add in my tuppence...

Originally posted by Floyd
I don't see how the dance can be called Ceroc when the dance exists in its own right outside Ceroc (the business) e.g. most of the moves can be seen in very old dance-related film clips.

?? the Ceroc franchise teaches you to dance. It takes individual elements or building blocks and strings them together to form moves and mini-routines.
You can know all the bits, but it is the way you are taught them and how to put them together that makes the dance uniquely 'Ceroc'.

I don't know if I am explaining myself very well: If you have a pile of Lego and no instructions, you can build stuff - putting it together to build what you want. But the Lego came with instructions to build what's on the front of the box.
Ceroc gives you a set of the bricks and some instructions. Freestyle lets you build your own model.
But there are other sets - space Lego and medieval Lego. They have roughly the same blocks and bits can be interchanged with no problem, with some bits definitely belonging to one set or another.
If you want to go and get other bits from other sets to add to your dancing, Ceroc lets you.
If you want to just use the blocks Ceroc gives you, you can.
If you want to build a repertoire for a specific music style, you can.

My vision of 'Ceroc' as a dance is of it being a melting pot for all the 'moves' that can be seen in every other form of dance - the 'best' ones {subjective term} being assimilated into the collective.(...perhaps with slightly less 'Borg' overtones )

So dancing 'Ceroc' is a dance style - just not a very specific one. One that is easy to get the basic bricks for, even if you don't follow the instructions or use them go on to a different style.

Ceroc as a franchise is basically there in an attempt to bind all the moves of Ceroc (as a dance) together - since the source and direction of every move is so diverse, without this binding and over time, it would fragment and loose the whole. By keeping 'Ceroc' as the main element, you can still have 'Jive', 'Blues', 'Club', 'Handbag'... sub-sections that perform two functions: They further enhance the main source and allow dancers to delve deeper into styles that suit them without leaving the familiarity of a core they know.

(sorry;:sorry: I know the 'Lego' thing is a very 'boy-ish' analogy, but I always used to get a little Lego model in the stocking at the end of my bed for Christmas )

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp

One of the main reasons that I've not moved on with Lindy is the supercilious attitude towards jive of a number of people (but by no means all) who do Lindy.Steve

Thats hit a chord here too. I'm SICK TO THE BACK TEETH of Lindy hoppers who use the ...." oh when you're ready you can progress to Lindy".:reallymad :reallymad Sorry, but been there done that got the T-shirt and didn' like it! trained with Simon Selmon (lovely guy, great teacher), did Jumpin at the Woodside (did a Frankie Manning class ..... what a guy!!) ... still didn't get into it.

I do Ceroc because I like it more and it suits my style. I really don't aprrecaite being told that someones a better dancer than me just because they do Swing/Lindy!

Right ... calming down can I say that this attitude does not pervade all Lindyers ... I epecialy like the way that SSS expressed himeslf elsewhere in the forum.

I have a lot of time for LindyHop as a dance form ... its does look good and there are aspects of the dance that I've tried to borrow. I will alwyas enjoy watching the likes of Jump'n'Jive and 'Hev Mates' dancing ... and at least they don't ram the Lindy Superiority thing down my thoat.


....off now to lie in dark room and think of 1st moves and octopuses......

[Scot]

Originally posted by Gadget


(sorry;:sorry: I know the 'Lego' thing is a very 'boy-ish' analogy, but I always used to get a little Lego model in the stocking at the end of my bed for Christmas )

The Lego thing is fine its the the "borg" thing that worries me.....

[Stubob]

I started dancing modern jive about 2 years ago. The LeRoc venue I attended (Rosyth) closed, but was taken over by Scot and Ceroc Edinburgh. Having never been to a Ceroc venue I did not know what to expect, however I personally noticed very little difference in the moves or the music......I do have to say that the teacher is completely mad....! Rosyth is very different from any dance venue I have ever attended...!!!

I have also been learning WCS and Latin.....which I have been able to take back and add to my Ceroc. What I am doing more of in Ceroc is footwork....and am enjoying the dance more as a result of this.

Scot's point about people learning Ceroc, moving on to something else and then ripping the p**s out Ceroc is something I have encountered too. Ironically, the people I am thinking about do still attend Ceroc nights........strange...! There's nowt stranger than folk lad!

Stuart

[Scot]

Originally posted by Stubob
I started dancing modern jive about 2 years ago. The LeRoc venue I attended (Rosyth) closed, but was taken over by Scot and Ceroc Edinburgh. Having never been to a Ceroc venue I did not know what to expect, however I personally noticed very little difference in the moves or the music......I do have to say that the teacher is completely mad....! Rosyth is very different from any dance venue I have ever attended...!!!

Stuart

There wouldn't be since Robert who was your previous Teacher orginally went to Ceroc in Livingston spookly enough my Class.

Mad is such a strong word I would like to think that I am slightly more expressive in Rosyth. Lets face it because the class is so small and I know everybody personally I can get away with it a bit more than I can at other nights.

PS Quick correction Ceroc Edinburgh did not take on this night I did. It is way to small to be an offical Ceroc Night. If it was made a Ceroc Night I would have to pay to keep it running.