Is Ceroc a dance or an organisation?

[Will]

Originally posted by Gus
Going a bit off-thread here ... but

Have you noticed how the people who come out with the all knowing comments are rarely the ones who are actualy the ones who are really good.

Gus, this is getting spooky now.

I've had the same experience. I particularly remember one night having a chat with this guy in a pub after a Ceroc night in Fulham, only to listen to him slag off Ceroc as a dance for beginners that you could only take so far, and that if you really want to get serious about dancing you had to take up Lindyhop. I ended up just having to ask the guy why he bothered to turn up to Ceroc nights at all if that was how he felt.

....and the thing was, he was a very ordinary dancer, both Cerocer and Lindyhop.

I see I'm going to have to PM you names to compare. Wouldn't be at all suprised if we are talking about one and the same.

Will

[Will]

Seems to still be a bit of confusion over this debate about whether or not Ceroc is the name of a dance.

To put it another way:-

When Ceroc was invented, if the people who invented it hadn't formed a company with the same name and patented it, you'd have probably never heard of phrases such as 'Modern Jive', 'French Jive', 'LeRoc', etc.... But they did, so you do.

Conversly, as I illuded to earlier in the thread, if the first people to do Salsa had started a company with the name and patented it, you'd have Hespanic Jive companies springing up everywhere.

The amusing Irony of all of this is that neither Ceroc (the Company), nor any of the breakaway competitors want what the dance that other companys do to be called Ceroc, but for entirely different reasons. Well I think that it is quite amusing anyway.

At the end of the day though, if you remove all immotive, political and business/financial factors from it all, you are left with a dance called Ceroc (all be it with an ever increasing reportoire of styles coming through).

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Will
I particularly remember one night having a chat with this guy in a pub after a Ceroc night in Fulham, only to listen to him slag off Ceroc as a dance for beginners that you could only take so far, and that if you really want to get serious about dancing you had to take up Lindyhop.

As I keep saying - there is nothing in any swing-based dance that makes it a better dance than the others.
But...
the average Lindy dancer is probably better than the average jiver.

Several reasons:
- Lindy is a bit harder to learn, so the people that stick with it may be a bit keener.
- In Jive you have the dance, and the atmosphere. But with Lindy you get people who are really into the music and the fashion as well. Again it might make people a bit keener.
- Many people that learn Lindy already do other dances - particularly Jive. So you don't get as many absolute beginners
- Lindy teaches more technique than jive. This might put some people off, but it means your average lindy dancer probably knows more about the basics of dancing.
- Lindy is danced worldwide. Jive is only done in the UK, and Australia/NZ. It gives more input into the evolution of the dance.
- The very best Lindy dancers are better than the top jive dancers. That raises the overall standard.

I would recommend learning another dance to any experienced jiver who has the time. Not because they are better dances, but simply to learn new things. But you don't have to learn another dance to become a good dancer.

David

[Will]

Originally posted by DavidB

- The very best Lindy dancers are better than the top jive dancers. That raises the overall standard.

Whilst I agree with some of your other points, I have to disagree with this. I've been to a few Lindy events and seen some great dancers, but nobody that stands out as looking better than the top Cerocers (Modern Jivers). Indeed, in my opinion I'm more impressed by V&L than by say Simon Selmon (great dancer that he is), and I suspect if you took a non-dancer off the street and showed them both couples, they'd be more impressed with what V&L do too.

I guess that at the end of the day it does come down to personal taste.

[TheTramp]

Have to agree with Will (sorry David).

It does all come down to personal taste, and I would agree that the average standard is higher.

But when you get right up there, I don't necessarily think that the best Lindy dancers (and I've seen Ryan Francois and Julie Oram - although, not Frankie Manning) are any better than the best jivers - although, it is difficult to say that someone is purely a jiver. Once they get to that stage, most diversify in some way, so they are no longer purely doing jive (ie. N&N, V&L etc.)

Have to say though - and you'll like this. The best live performance I've ever seen, was by Deborah and Robert - the world WCS champions. I hope that someone gets them coming back to the UK again soon (hint, hint)

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Will
I guess that at the end of the day it does come down to personal taste.

It definitely does. So I thought I'd explain what I look for in a good dancer (to watch, not dance with)

- Musical interpretation. That means everything - playing with the beat, hitting the breaks, restarting after a break, phrasing the dance, highlighting little things in the music, using the emotion of the song, using the lyrics, matching the 'size' of the dance to how the music builds up, matching your style to the music, matching moves to the music.

- Lead & Follow - I hate choreographed moves done in freestyle.

- Individual dancing ability, and making the most of what you can do.

- A well-balanced couple - Reacting to each other, but still with the man showing off the lady.

- Interpretation

- Invisible leads - I should be watching the lady, and wondering how the man got her to do what she does.

- Variation in moves - not necessarily complex moves, but just not doing the same move over and over again. (One complaint I have with a lot of Lindy couples is the number of identical whips they do.)

- Performing to the audience when they are putting on a show


What I don't like is

- Lifts and drops for the sake of it

- Feeling uncomfortable - either because a move looks painful, or because it looks indecent.

David

(PS Franck - time for another thread...)

[Dreadful Scathe]

i thought this summed up the history of jive rather well

http://www.jiveriot.com/history.asp

no one doubts that Ceroc has made jive dance more popular, but the 'base dance' through all forms of modern jive is the same - thats why i never considered Ceroc to be a dance until Gus mentioned it here - just a big and well organised company that does jive. And as the style of jive differs around Ceroc venues, Ceroc can't be said to have a style either. Its not the moves its the way you do them that is 'style'.

Thats my sum up

Happy Dancing

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
i thought this summed up the history of jive rather well

http://www.jiveriot.com/history.asp

no one doubts that Ceroc has made jive dance more popular, but the 'base dance' through all forms of modern jive is the same
Happy Dancing

As ODA I fell duty bound to forward the view that JiveRiot may be being 'economical' with the truth..... of course in no way motivated by the fact that they are a rival organisation to Ceroc. As casual observer may point out that the statement, "The French took the dance, simplified it, mixed it in with the traditional Latin dances to form the dance that we now know as Modern Jive. " ... is curious as it has been mentioned by numerous people that Modern Jive as we know it isn't actualy danced in France! Answers to that minor point eagerly awaited.

The other slightly curious phrase is, "The dance now known as Modern French Jive can be seen throughout the UK, under many different guises. But the base dance is always the same, no matter how it is marketed.". Alwys the Same??? ... they have GOT to be joking ... just dance at a few venues round the country and you will see that the standard of teaching/dancing, the interpretation of moves and the base music varies tremendously.

Nice try ... but try again

{ODA ... back with a mission ... defending Ceroc though??? }

[TheTramp]

"But the base dance is always the same, no matter how it is marketed.".

Alwys the Same??? ... they have GOT to be joking ... just dance at a few venues round the country and you will see that the standard of teaching/dancing, the interpretation of moves and the base music varies tremendously.

Wheeee. Do I get to play ODA for a moment.

Have to say though, I actually agree with both of you. The standard, interpretation and teaching does vary all over the country (And let me just say here, that ceroc does not have a monopoly on the good teaching, I've seen some very bad ceroc teachers, and also some very good teachers who aren't ceroc based (and also some truly awful teachers who aren't ceroc based too)). But what DS said still stands. The base dance is the same - they all teach first moves, and combs, and arm jives, and pretzels, and......

I think that's what he meant. Although, he could, and probably will, say that himself.

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by TheTramp
But what DS said still stands. The base dance is the same - they all teach first moves, and combs, and arm jives, and pretzels, and......

I think that's what he meant. Although, he could, and probably will, say that himself.

Indeed. thats exactly what I meant, the base dance and basic moves are the same. Im certainly not anti-ceroc in any way nor is this topic, so Im not sure why Gus feels hes 'defending Ceroc'.

Originally posted by Gus
just dance at a few venues round the country and you will see that the standard of teaching/dancing, the interpretation of moves and the base music varies tremendously.

..exactly, thats true of every individual Jive class, and thats why Ceroc is not always interpreted as a dance or even a dance style. All you say above is true but the base dance is still the same, and I notice you didnt try to deny that!! 'base music' differences is hardly the same thing

Originally posted by Gus
is curious as it has been mentioned by numerous people that Modern Jive as we know it isn't actualy danced in France! Answers to that minor point eagerly awaited

It is fairly minor - every dance has its history and regional and country evolution will be different for them all. Ceroc classes within the UK themselves vary greatly in style as do other jive companies. And didnt someone mention the big difference between UK ceroc and NZ and OZ ceroc ? Thats evolution that is, who knows what the future will bring for jive in any country.

Im living up to my name with these Dreadfully Scathing remarks

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Im living up to my name with these Dreadfully Scathing remarks

Touche young sir, well met ..... still think you're wrong though

[Dreadful Scathe]

I'll agree to disagree that you've won - if thats ok

next topic:

Salsa is a nacho topping, not a dance

[Will]

Originally posted by Gus

"The French took the dance, simplified it, mixed it in with the traditional Latin dances to form the dance that we now know as Modern Jive. " ... is curious as it has been mentioned by numerous people that Modern Jive as we know it isn't actualy danced in France! Answers to that minor point eagerly awaited.

Another quality post from Gus, but I thought it only fair to the Dreadful Scathe to point out that he is technically right in in the Jive Riot quote about the French in that Ceroc's founder inventor is indeed French, so from that point the abocve quote is correct. Whether he represents a whole nation though is stretching things a bit is true, but you'd expect a little "Economy" from a rival.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Will
but I thought it only fair to the Dreadful Scathe to point out that he is technically right in in the Jive Riot quote about the French in that Ceroc's founder inventor is indeed French,

Aha ... but at what point was it invented?? Was it by the French for adapting it, the Yanks for introducing it, the original 1920's yanks for developing Lindy Hop???? The interesting thing about a dance that has evolved/developed is that I think it is difficult to put a mark in the sand and say THAT is the point where the dance was invented. Similalrly, I've recently had illustrated at there is not JUST Salsa ... there appears to be 3 different styles which have different footwork ..... would that be then a similar parrallel to Swing having ECS, WCS and Modern Jive???

OK ... bored now ... we need to question things that REALLY matter, i,e,... "what percentage of Kylie's body parts are 'natural' and untouched by implants, surgeons knife or other medical tampering?"

[TheTramp]

Sorry to continue this. But I found this on an official ceroc website....

The American G.I.s took Jive to France in the fifties and in the early eighties James Cronin, our founder, brought it to our shores, adapted it and called it CEROC (from C'est le roc... its Rock!)
~snip
Along the way other influences have made CEROC a versatile and popular modern partner dance

Just thought that it was interesting - especially since it's on a ceroc site.

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Just thought that it was interesting - especially since it's on a ceroc site.

Hmm 'other influences' no less. So it has been adapted and continues to be adapted - no less than what i said before. At least they admit it .

Of course Gus has officially changed the topic to Kylie so he cant reply - he's barred from this thread

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Of course Gus has officially changed the topic to Kylie so he cant reply - he's barred from this thread

you wouldn't like to put money on tht would you?

I would say that it also backs up what I said . James adapted it ... possibly quite radically ... and the 'other influences' refers to the 'borrowing' of moves from Tango, Hip Hop, Lindy etc.....

Try again Big Boy

[DavidB]

Here's an interesting post I found on the Leroc Bristol website. I can't find the original website it refers to.

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"Here is a post made by Chritine Keeble on another website that explains the early days of LeRoc / Ceroc...

If we put the debate into a historical perspective I can demonstrate that there is no essential difference between le roc and Ceroc other than ownership of companies and trademarks. I feel qualified to make this claim since I was a member of the original Ceroc cabaret team founded 1982. This was when Ceroc was just a club and not a franchise operation. At the same time as performing cabaret with Ceroc, I co-founded the original Le Roc club, Leicester Square (a non profit organisation run by a committee of 20). Both the Le Roc club and the Ceroc club cabarets were trained and choreographed by the same dancer, Michel Ange Lau. Both organisations made it their goal to spread the dance far and wide and both clubs taught simultaneously out of the Centre Charles Peguy, Leicester Square. I was not the only dancer who danced with both organisations. Sylvia Coleman started off as a member of the Le Roc club cabaret team. She then went on to teach in a disco off the Gloucester Road and finally joined forces with James Cronin to develop Ceroc as a Limited Company. When things started getting more commercial I was concerned that this was denying access to the dance for anyone living outside the London area. This is why I produced the How To Jive video (later relaunched as the How To Jive - le roc French jive video). The video enabled dance teachers outside the London area to gain access to the dance. About a year later (1991) James Cronin and Sylvia Coleman decided to start franchising Ceroc and this dramatically increased the reach of the dance across the country. Their first franchisee, Rob Austin broke away to set up another franchise group called Le Jive and this spread the dance even further. Another major force in spreading the dance was the work of Michel Gay in Bristol. In the early 1980's Michel Gay came to classes at the Centre Charles Peguy. His move to Bristol was a great loss for the girls at Leicester Square but our loss was Bristol's gain and Bristol now probably has the greatest concentration of superb dancers in the country. Michel Gay originally called his classes Ceroc - but when the Ceroc club became a limited company, and had to guard its trademark, he changed the name to Le Roc Bristol. Le Roc is the generic name and free for everybody to use while Ceroc is a made up, trademarked name and is only available to franchisees. Remember, Ceroc is an abbreviation for "C'est le roc". The style and quality of teaching does vary from one teacher to another and no one can generalise on this point. As a franchise operation Ceroc is responsible for its own reputation and would be unwise to employ an ineffectual teacher. Le roc is a name free for anyone to use and as such anyone can set up shop. However, the Le Roc French Jive Federation was formed to maintain and improve teaching standards and has been hugely successful in this goal (raising the level of dance both among members and non members). No one can join the Federation without passing an exam and the Federation sets high standards. Members meet regularly to exchange knowledge and expertise. This is why Le Roc teachers tend to have the reputation for being high quality teachers (but it is worth checking whether they are Federation members). Now I live in Paris where I do not need to worry about whether I am dancing with a Cerocer or a Le Rocer. If I were to ask a Frenchman which of those he was - well I would just receive a bemused shrug and be whisked onto the dance floor - heavenly bliss!!! Anyway happy modern jiving!!!!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Here's an interesting post I found on the Leroc Bristol website. I can't find the original website it refers to.

Both the Le Roc club and the Ceroc club cabarets were trained and choreographed by the same dancer, Michel Ange Lau.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

David

Interesting. In Michel's book he describes how a young James Cronin came to him with the original idea for expansion. I've heard from a third party that this was not how James remembers it. Has anyone got the Official Ceroc version of events, or would Ceroc agree with everything said by Christine?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gus


Interesting. In Michel's book he describes how a young James Cronin came to him with the original idea for expansion. I've heard from a third party that this was not how James remembers it. Has anyone got the Official Ceroc version of events, or would Ceroc agree with everything said by Christine?

Aha. An account from someone who was there backs up my argument. Ceroc IS an organisation not a dance or a style .
Gus's argument would only ever stand up if the founders of Ceroc Ltd were the only people to be involved in creating the original style of dance - but if there were more people involved in its beginnings that taught it too, then ceroc and le roc are both equally offshoots of that original style and neither can claim to be anything other than Modern Jive.

Kylie looks young for her age doesnt she ?