The teacher is *always* right (?)

[Magic Hans]

Picking up on a previous thread about helping beginners

My own opinion is that you've paid to get a lesson from the teacher on-stage. Which means that the person talking to you over/under the teacher must think they've got more to offer than the teacher on stage - and sometimes they have

I'm a little sad to say that I sincerely agree with Andy's sentiment.

For the following reason:

It seems that over the past few weeks/months, Ceroc teachers (certainly at Marcus Garvey) seem to be putting more emphasis 'tension', with out 1) any sort of clarification and 2) putting it in the context of being gentle with partner.

There seems to me to be two dangers:

a) That tension is interpreted as tension between partners, as opposed to internal (or body) tension, which I believe is a poor habit to learn, and

b) that emphasis on inter-body tension, if interpreted as such, is likely to lead onto injury, be it over the longer period, or the short term.


Is the teacher always right?

[Cruella]

Picking up on a previous thread about helping beginners





I'm a little sad to say that I sincerely agree with Andy's sentiment.

For the following reason:

It seems that over the past few weeks/months, Ceroc teachers (certainly at Marcus Garvey) seem to be putting more emphasis 'tension', with out 1) any sort of clarification and 2) putting it in the context of being gentle with partner.

There seems to me to be two dangers:

a) That tension is interpreted as tension between partners, as opposed to internal (or body) tension, which I believe is a poor habit to learn, and

b) that emphasis on inter-body tension, if interpreted as such, is likely to lead onto injury, be it over the longer period, or the short term.


Is the teacher always right?

I don't quite understand what you are saying here, can you clarify?
The tension that is talked about in class is in the arms on the step back. If there is no tension at all, how can you lead the lady? I am far better at demonstrating these things than i am at talking them through (which is why i couldn't teach) so if you need help with understanding this feel free to come and ask me next time i'm at Marcus Garvey.

[MartinHarper]

Well, there's this in-body-tension, so that when I pull my partner's hand, I get her whole body, rather than just her arm. I would call this frame. (IME) Modern jive has a flexible frame.

There's also between-body-tension, where both dancers are leaning back a little, supporting each other's weight, so the dancers' arms are in tension. I would call this counterbalance. This allows me to lead my partner to step back by reducing this connecting tension, rather than by directly pushing her. (IME) Modern jive doesn't have counterbalance.

It sounds like Magic Hans's teachers are talking about "tension" without making it particularly clear what the heck they mean.

[LMC]

Well, there's this in-body-tension, so that when I pull my partner's hand, I get her whole body, rather than just her arm. I would call this frame. (IME) Modern jive has a flexible frame.

There's also between-body-tension, where both dancers are leaning back a little, supporting each other's weight, so the dancers' arms are in tension. I would call this counterbalance. This allows me to lead my partner to step back by reducing this connecting tension, rather than by directly pushing her. (IME) Modern jive doesn't have counterbalance.

It sounds like Magic Hans's teachers are talking about "tension" without making it particularly clear what the heck they mean.

NOW I get it..... Thanks Martin

But I would argue that counterbalance does come in on some moves - the catapault and shoulder drop spring to mind...

[Gus]

It seems that over the past few weeks/months, Ceroc teachers (certainly at Marcus Garvey) seem to be putting more emphasis 'tension', with out 1) any sort of clarification and 2) putting it in the context of being gentle with partner.

Tension (and compression) are difficult things to teach clearly in a mass class. Its a bit like aerials (though maybe not as dangerous), you need to be able to see clearly what is happening. At Cool Catz and similar ventures, the tension/compression thing was taught by exercises and the reasons/uses/advantages are explained and demonstrated. I'm not sure that the standard Ceroc format allows this to be done easily, espcially if you've only got 30 minutes or so to teach 4 moves.

[Cruella]

Martins explanation is so much clearer than i could give. Gus is right, with a limited time in the ceroc class the fundaments of frame/ tension can not be completely taught. If you had been doing the class (i suspect you were actually helping out with the refresher class at the time) you would have seen us run through a few drills to help explain the tension thing. Magic Hands I suggest you come to one of Pauls workshops if you want to learn more about it as he spends alot of time in teaching this side of MJ.

[Magic Hans]

Tension (and compression) are difficult things to teach clearly in a mass class.
...

I'm sure you're right. By all accounts, Gus, you seem to have a history and pedigree that is generally lauded. I don't.

My two simple points (one practical, and one theoretical) are this:

1) When dancing with newcomers to CEROC (and some who know better), I often find that I have to make a consious effort in order to minimize the pull on my left arm. If not, I know that my left shoulder will suffer (over time). I know of one or two taxis who have, given up over the last year or so, for this precise reason.

2) The mechanics, for me, is clear. Joints are designed to endure a certain level of stress. This level will, as far as I can tell, differ for each person, and between constant or repetitive stress, and short/sharp one-offs. Excede these levels, and damage will happen, no doubt.

For me, respect comes before learning or enjoyment.

I will endeavour to respect my partner by treating her gently no matter what. Should our dance suffer for it, then so be it!

Is this unreasonable?

How important is it to present tension within the context of being gentle (or soft)? Of utmost or no importance?

Maybe I'm being unfair. Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but I can't think of any more than half a dozen or so teachers (of any persuasion) who have mentioned tension in a manner that I would be happy with.

[LMC]

I'm even less qualified to comment. So if I have this completely wrong I'd really appreciate someone telling me before I get set in my ways!

Literally only over the last week or two, I've really started to be conscious of tension and framing. And it seems to me that the trick to maintaining flexibility of movement, is to kind of 'lock' my joint before it's locked - i.e. stop the 'extension' *before* the joint is at full stretch ('locked out'). In some ways the need to do that is "obvious" although I'm not sure I'm explaining it clearly. I think of it as retaining a reserve of possible movement - which actually makes it easier to follow the next lead.

But actually *doing* it is a different matter.

"Locking out" your joints and counterbalancing against your partner makes some moves "apparently" easier when you are a beginner - you almost rebound into the next part of the move. I believe the technical term is yanking, which I know is a Bad Thing I suspect I used to be a bit of a yanker - maybe I still am? - but I sincerely hope I'm getting better now I've been dancing just over two months.

[tsh]

I'm even less qualified to comment. So if I have this completely wrong I'd really appreciate someone telling me before I get set in my ways!

Literally only over the last week or two, I've really started to be conscious of tension and framing. And it seems to me that the trick to maintaining flexibility of movement, is to kind of 'lock' my joint before it's locked - i.e. stop the 'extension' *before* the joint is at full stretch ('locked out'). In some ways the need to do that is "obvious" although I'm not sure I'm explaining it clearly. I think of it as retaining a reserve of possible movement - which actually makes it easier to follow the next lead.

But actually *doing* it is a different matter.

"Locking out" your joints and counterbalancing against your partner makes some moves "apparently" easier when you are a beginner - you almost rebound into the next part of the move. I believe the technical term is yanking, which I know is a Bad Thing I suspect I used to be a bit of a yanker - maybe I still am? - but I sincerely hope I'm getting better now I've been dancing just over two months.

I'll try and answer this, since noone more qualified has tried to...

First, yanking is what the guys do. If a follower does it, then it's back-leading or anticipation....

The benefit of not fully extending your joints is that from any position where there is some tension, your partner can invite you to move by increasing or decreasing the pressure on your hand, you then move to react to that change in pressure, so you're using your muscles as a spring to absorb the lead - rather than the force being transmitted directly to your joints.

The tension doesn't need to be very much - the weight of your arms is enough - and most of the time all you need to do is keep a bit of a kink in your arm like they explain in the warm-up with the in-out, although as taught, there is only compression on the in part, tension is replaced by wacing the hands in a circle! Explaining it works much better with exersises though

Sean

[Lucy Locket]

When doing the refresher class for beginners @ Leicester i try & show them what is meant by tension & will demonstrate with my partner what happens if there is tension & what happens without & then get them to practice both ways so they can feel the difference.

I feel all the classes ever show are the moves, there's never enough time for the in depth teaching. Our refresher classes try & give them that little bit more so they can understand why & how etc etc.

We try & start them on the right foot so they don't develop bad habits that can't be broken later on.

I did salsa for a few weeks (stopped due to lack of parking), but i liked the way the beginners were taken into a separate room after the 1/2 hour warm up. We then had an hour's class which included explanations & after the class could discuss things with the teacher before joining the others for the rest of the evening. The pressure to get the class over & done with by 8.30 so we didn't go into freestyle time wasn't there. We were all beginners together so didn't feel intimidated by the good dancers. We all helped each other too which was nice.

Maybe some MJ venues could adopt this & give more in depth classes. I know taxi dancers help but they aren't there to teach & very few would explain about tension. I know i've come away with aching arms & shoulders after an evening with beginners.

[Gus]

By all accounts, Gus, you seem to have a history and pedigree that is generally lauded.

Are you calling me a dog???

2) The mechanics, for me, is clear. Joints are designed to endure a certain level of stress. This level will, as far as I can tell, differ for each person, and between constant or repetitive stress, and short/sharp one-offs. Excede these levels, and damage will happen, no doubt.

Th mechanics may well be clear, but getting to that 'nirvanic' state of clear connection through the various moods and beats of a track is a hard path. You young Grasshopper have made but first step on road to enlightenment ... but before you can call yourself Master, you must first learn to cross rice paper with partner to fast track and yet not leave imprint or inpart pain to any joint etc. etc. etc .....

OK, what I'm trying to say (despite a few drinks) is that the theory is great but in the heat of the moment all good intentions can go out of the window. From my rather limited experince of teaching this, its as much to do with the balance and footwork of BOTH parties as to do with the grip. However, listen not to the sad ramblings of a stumbling acolyte like myslef but go straight to the source of enlightenment, e.g. DavidB or Amir

[MartinHarper]

Yanking is what the guys do. If a follower does it, then it's back-leading or anticipation....

Definitions vary, I guess. For me, yanking is when force is applied in such a way that it is absorbed by the shoulder joint - this being the joint that seems most vulnerable to lead/follow injuries. So, both guys and gals can yank, and both can dance so as to (partially) protect themselves from yanking.

Stop the 'extension' *before* the joint is at full stretch

This is one of the ways (for both men and women).Part of it is that your upper arm can act as a spring, as tsh mentioned. The other part is that your muscles are stronger when your arm is bent, and weaker at full extension. Lindy teachers seem very hot on this.
I'm unsure how much it applies to MJ. Firstly, I have seen several MJ teachers dancing whole songs with their arms at full extension on every "out". Secondly, the technique gives a less flexible frame than is typical for MJ dancers. Regardless of whether it is "good MJ", it's preferable to a bust shoulder.

One of my weaknesses on this is after a free spin: if I end up too far away from my partner, the temptation to stretch my hand way out to catch her hand is very strong, and this leaves me in a vulnerable position if she happens to pull on that hand. Better to not let her get so far away in the first place.

[El Salsero Gringo]

First, yanking is what the guys do.

No, not just the guys. Lots of girls yank and as far as I can tell it's because they aren't sufficiently confident of their own balance not to.

And it seems to me that the trick to maintaining flexibility of movement, is to kind of 'lock' my joint before it's locked - i.e. stop the 'extension' *before* the joint is at full stretch ('locked out').

Pretty much every MJ teacher whose lessons I've ever attended has stressed the importance of *NOT* locking your elbow joints at full arm extension, so I don't feel in the least bit shy about passing that on.

"Locking out" your joints and counterbalancing against your partner makes some moves "apparently" easier when you are a beginner - you almost rebound into the next part of the move.

Please, don't ever, ever, ever do that. It's extremely unpleasant for the guy, potentially painful and dangerous to boot. He's trying to keep his own balance too, and won't appreciate you pulling him over. And it's bad for your joints as well as his.

[LMC]

And it seems to me that the trick to maintaining flexibility of movement, is to kind of 'lock' my joint before it's locked - i.e. stop the 'extension' *before* the joint is at full stretch ('locked out').

Pretty much every MJ teacher whose lessons I've ever attended has stressed the importance of *NOT* locking your elbow joints at full arm extension, so I don't feel in the least bit shy about passing that on.

Agreed. Sometimes easier said than done though as beginners particularly frequently don't stand close enough to start with and/or step back too far - I know I used to. It's getting used to the 'personal space' adjustment needed I guess!

"Locking out" your joints and counterbalancing against your partner makes some moves "apparently" easier when you are a beginner - you almost rebound into the next part of the move.

Please, don't ever, ever, ever do that. It's extremely unpleasant for the guy, potentially painful and dangerous to boot. He's trying to keep his own balance too, and won't appreciate you pulling him over.

Sorry, hoped I had made it clear that this is a Very Bad Thing - I hope I never do it now!

[David Franklin]

No, not just the guys. Lots of girls yank and as far as I can tell it's because they aren't sufficiently confident of their own balance not to.

The thing I find worst (and commonest) are the followers who take "step back" to mean "step back with no arm tension until you reach full extension with a yank".

But my current plea (as I nurse an injured shoulder): I don't think there's ever (outside of leverage moves) a real reason for the follow to be providing lots of tension, but please try not to do it when the man's arms or balance are compromised. It really doesn't take much force to cause pain if my arms are twisted behind my back. Nor does it take much force to take me off balance if I'm trying to turn under my arm.

Oh well, off to the physio in a couple of hours...

[Cruella]

One of my weaknesses on this is after a free spin: if I end up too far away from my partner, the temptation to stretch my hand way out to catch her hand is very strong, and this leaves me in a vulnerable position if she happens to pull on that hand. Better to not let her get so far away in the first place.

If your lady does travel whilst free spinning, compensate by following her, that way you won't need to stretch.

[El Salsero Gringo]

[/B]
If your lady does travel whilst free spinning, compensate by following her, that way you won't need to stretch.

but he didn't say if it was he or she who was doing the free spin...

[Cruella]

but he didn't say if it was he or she who was doing the free spin...

True. i was being presumptuous. 'Better to not let her get so far away.' I read that as if she was doing the travelling.

[MartinHarper]

As it happens, ESG is right: it's normally me that's travelled whilst spinning. Lack of practice. So yeah, I should stay closer, and be ready to fall into Charleston for a few beats if I end up too far away.

[Cruella]

As it happens, ESG is right: it's normally me that's travelled whilst spinning. Lack of practice. So yeah, I should stay closer, and be ready to fall into Charleston for a few beats if I end up too far away.

Oh pants i'm always wrong!!