Misleading moves

[Ghost]

What moves suggest something else to the lady if she doesn't know them?

The two that spring to mind are

Wurlitizer - The push away suggests "please do a 360 free spin"
Hook Over - suggests "I want to dip you"

In both cases the end result can cause damage which is not good.

[QUOTE=Dreadful Scathe]Luckily ive never had anyone confuse my signals for something else to a dangerous end, but i remember there was one move i learnt in London that had a not too complicated lead that dancers up here saw as a signal for something else and turned the opposite way without me leading them as they anticipated something else - I think they thought id forgotten the move they were trying to do when i had no clue what it was

Another good example of lead and signal combined is the Ballroom drop - the signal is right hand across your own chest whilst mens right to ladies right - lady grabs with spare hand (if shes knows its a ballroom drop or not) - you turn her out with straight arms, lead back in and drop - except if she didnt realise it was a signal AND a lead... she would have been following the lead and just stands there ...so you do a double handed return instead of the drop (before she gets a chance to realise thats not what you meant all along )

Uurrrr ..... methinks this is maybe a good example of singal confusion The official ceroc signal is actualy "The man's left hand on his right upper arm". Thats the way most independant instructors, including myslef, teach the move. The real lead is actualy a combination of the turn out and the change in hand grip. I'm curious as to where the hand across chest came into vogue. Is that how its taught in Scotland?

I also do a really dangerous drop called 'the neck drop' where the lady falls over and gets caught by one hand behind the neck is lowered to the floor and back up. The 'lead' for this is me saying 'neck drop', leading into a wurlitzer and placing my hand behind the neck when she returns and lowering from an upright position as she falls - funnily enough only my regular partner would follow all three of those . (And if she didnt feel my hand at the back of her neck she wouldnt drop - could be sore after all )

Very true ... another dangerous move ... but loads of variations to get into it. You can just lead a lady into it without a signal ... but as you point out ... its a move that should only be done with a regular partner.

The only other common signal drop that comes to mind is the Robbie Dip .... not currentlly an official Ceroc move but fairly cmmon down South. However, I've seen and experienced this signal mistaken a few times so its now used very sparingly.

I really don't like 'signals' as leads (I'm taking the view that offering the hand behind the back for a pretzel isn't really a signal, but an integral part of the move (and other similar examples)).


This is exactly the sort of reason for not wanting to use signals. They are very easy to mis-interpret, and could lead to accidents. I've also found that they tend to vary in different parts of the country, ie. a hand signal for a jump in London, is a signal for a drop in Brighton (or a signal for your partner to run off the floor, screaming, in Aberdeen).

The only signal to ever use is to bring your partner into a close move and say the name of the move. And if there's anything other than comprehension in her expression (fear is a definite no-no), then the move should be aborted.

Steve

Thanks
Christopher

[TiggsTours]

The most dangerous is the back drop, where the girl is expected to fall backwards and be caught by the guy, in a move that has exactly the same lead as a number of others that are not drops! When I first got taught this in Brighton, we got taught a signal for it, but that never gets taught anywhere now.

Personally, unless the guy has made it plainly clear he wants me to drop, then I won't. Quite often guys look surprised, or actually say "you were supposed to drop" well I'm sorry, but unless you make it obvious, (after all, I have my back to you, I don't know where you are or what you're doing) then I'm not going to risk ending on landing painfully on my arse, just to make you look good if I read your mind correctly, and you are actually there to catch me! Some guys lead this really well, by staying in contact with you and lowering you down into the drop, but more often than not they just expect you to be mind reader!

[QUOTE=Ghost]What moves suggest something else to the lady if she doesn't know them?

The two that spring to mind are

Wurlitizer - The push away suggests "please do a 360 free spin"
Hook Over - suggests "I want to dip you"

In both cases the end result can cause damage which is not good.

Luckily ive never had anyone confuse my signals for something else to a dangerous end, but i remember there was one move i learnt in London that had a not too complicated lead that dancers up here saw as a signal for something else and turned the opposite way without me leading them as they anticipated something else - I think they thought id forgotten the move they were trying to do when i had no clue what it was

Another good example of lead and signal combined is the Ballroom drop - the signal is right hand across your own chest whilst mens right to ladies right - lady grabs with spare hand (if shes knows its a ballroom drop or not) - you turn her out with straight arms, lead back in and drop - except if she didnt realise it was a signal AND a lead... she would have been following the lead and just stands there ...so you do a double handed return instead of the drop (before she gets a chance to realise thats not what you meant all along )











Thanks
Christopher

[Ghost]

The most dangerous is the back drop, where the girl is expected to fall backwards and be caught by the guy, in a move that has exactly the same lead as a number of others that are not drops! When I first got taught this in Brighton, we got taught a signal for it, but that never gets taught anywhere now.

Ouch!

Personally, unless the guy has made it plainly clear he wants me to drop, then I won't.

I've been wondering if there should be some kind of reply sign for the ladies for some of these moves to indicate they both know the move and consent to it? Too complicated? I like the Tramp's

The only signal to ever use is to bring your partner into a close move and say the name of the move. And if there's anything other than comprehension in her expression (fear is a definite no-no), then the move should be aborted.

Quite often guys look surprised, or actually say "you were supposed to drop" well I'm sorry, but unless you make it obvious, (after all, I have my back to you, I don't know where you are or what you're doing) then I'm not going to risk ending on landing painfully on my arse, just to make you look good if I read your mind correctly, and you are actually there to catch me!

Some guys lead this really well, by staying in contact with you and lowering you down into the drop, but more often than not they just expect you to be mind reader!

Having browsed a fair few posts I suspect quite a few guys would be very worried if the ladies could read their thoughts while they're dancing

Take care,
Christopher

[LMC]

I'm not madly keen on too many 'block' moves in a dance - a few are OK and make sure that I'm paying attention (I do *try* to be easily led on the dance floor 'cos I'm so b****y obstinate in all other areas of my life). Unfortunately, some leaders seem to love to catch you out - and if they are yankers, then block moves can be VERY painful.

Having to do a quick/sharp change of direction really interrupts the flow of the dance and if leaders don't allow momentary "freeze/recover" time it can actually be a bit painful. Only a split second is needed, but a split second longer than the reaction time for a "flowing on" follow - if you get me - e.g. being stopped abruptly and spun round the opposite way to the way you were expecting without any "recovery" time can really throw you off balance - or maybe that's because I'm too slow as a relative beginner.

Block moves in moderation can be quite nice if led well and fit in with breaks though .

[Msfab]

I'm not madly keen on too many 'block' moves in a dance - a few are OK and make sure that I'm paying attention (I do *try* to be easily led on the dance floor 'cos I'm so b****y obstinate in all other areas of my life). Unfortunately, some leaders seem to love to catch you out - and if they are yankers, then block moves can be VERY painful.

Having to do a quick/sharp change of direction really interrupts the flow of the dance and if leaders don't allow momentary "freeze/recover" time it can actually be a bit painful. Only a split second is needed, but a split second longer than the reaction time for a "flowing on" follow - if you get me - e.g. being stopped abruptly and spun round the opposite way to the way you were expecting without any "recovery" time can really throw you off balance - or maybe that's because I'm too slow as a relative beginner.

Block moves in moderation can be quite nice if led well and fit in with breaks though .

I couldnt of put it better myself!
In fact sometimes I think they are sometimes dangerous!

[ChrisA]

Having to do a quick/sharp change of direction really interrupts the flow of the dance and if leaders don't allow momentary "freeze/recover" time it can actually be a bit painful. Only a split second is needed, but a split second longer than the reaction time for a "flowing on" follow - if you get me - e.g. being stopped abruptly and spun round the opposite way to the way you were expecting without any "recovery" time can really throw you off balance - or maybe that's because I'm too slow as a relative beginner.

Not necessarily. If a lead is going to do this, it's his responsibility to know how much (reaction time) + (momentum-change time) you as a follower need.

So even if you're a beginner it's still his fault.

But that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be in control of your own momentum. So when you step back for instance, you should provide some tension, but not so much that he has to balance your whole weight.

[ChrisA]

... by the way, just noticed your avatar.

Is that the proverbial wet haddock?

(or was it a halibut??)

Whatever...

[Ghost]

Unfortunately, some leaders seem to love to catch you out - and if they are yankers, then block moves can be VERY painful.

I just got a horrible mental image of one of these "leaders" dancing all the above leads in order to 'catch out' the lady

Take care,
Christopher

[Gadget]

I think *All* of my moves are missleading {...as anyone who has danced with me will testify }

The closest thing to a signal I have is offering my hand: I think that you should be able to lead everything if the lady has her eyes closed - the lead is conveyed primaraly through touch. Visual clues may back it up, but IMHO are more likley to be miss-read and result in the follower anticipating rather than following.

[Minnie M]

"When's a tunnel not a tunnel" always gets me

The sometimes double tunnel, when follower is behind the lead, does she go back under the tunnel or flip turn - normally the lead is definite enough to know, but sometimes not

[Rebecca]

My partner hates saying the names of moves when dancing, for exactly the reason that Gadget put forward - that is, that leading by touch and pressure is so much more fulfilling; and I agree. . .

However, I have to say that when dancing with other guys I would love to hear a word or two in my ear on occasion (as the Tramp suggests), especially the words 'drop', 'dip', 'freeze' (if it's not obvious by reading the music), and especially 'DUCK!!!' :

"When's a tunnel not a tunnel" always gets me

The sometimes double tunnel, when follower is behind the lead, does she go back under the tunnel or flip turn - normally the lead is definite enough to know, but sometimes not

[TiggsTours]

My partner hates saying the names of moves when dancing, for exactly the reason that Gadget put forward - that is, that leading by touch and pressure is so much more fulfilling; and I agree. . .

I couldn't agree more there is nothing (and I mean nothing) I hate more when dancing than being told verbally what's coming! If the guy can't lead it properly, then he shouldn't do it! Even if I did remember all the names of all the moves, it just puts a dampner on the whole mood of the dance. What particuarly bugs me is when a guys goes to spin me and shouts "double" at me, I'll do a double when a) its led properly, b) it suits the flow of the dance and c) I bl**din' well want to!

[ChrisA]

What particuarly bugs me is when a guys goes to spin me and shouts "double" at me, I'll do a double when a) its led properly, b) it suits the flow of the dance and c) I bl**din' well want to!

There's a guy I've seen at Ashtons a few times who wears the same sort of stuff for dancing as I do, despite being about 400 years older than I am (mental note to self: change dress style used for dancing well before I hit 80 )...

... anyway I've watched him with some incredulity signalling the number of spins he wants the girl to do by holding up a corresponding number of fingers.

When the signal is missed (only 100% of the time... duh... ), he then explains, apparently finding it hugely amusing. For some reason, the girls don't seem to find it quite so funny. I haven't seen any of them signal a double (or even single) spin to him yet though...

[TiggsTours]

There's a guy I've seen at Ashtons a few times who wears the same sort of stuff for dancing as I do, despite being about 400 years older than I am (mental note to self: change dress style used for dancing well before I hit 80 )...

... anyway I've watched him with some incredulity signalling the number of spins he wants the girl to do by holding up a corresponding number of fingers.

When the signal is missed (only 100% of the time... duh... ), he then explains, apparently finding it hugely amusing. For some reason, the girls don't seem to find it quite so funny. I haven't seen any of them signal a double (or even single) spin to him yet though...

Interestingly enough, I've not managed to spot him, can't wait now though!

[LMC]

I don't think verbal leads should be necessary either.

In reality, any move can be misled - I figure that if I can follow a move with one leader then it isn't necessarily *all* my fault if it goes completely pear-shaped with another leader...

[Ghost]

I don't think verbal leads should be necessary either.

Personally I'm not fond of them in case I'm mis-heard "I** g**in* to d* a *a****** dr**" isn't the greatest signal ever, but it depends on the music etc.

My current solutions are
A) It's a safe move that can misinterpretted in a safe way (eg potentially any beginners move danced with a beginner.) - be aware of what can happen and flow with what the lady decides to dance.

B) It's a safe move when done properly (eg wurlitizer), but can be harmful if misinterpretted - only dance it with experienced dancers and be ready to lead the appropriate different move if it's misinterpretted eg let her hand slip out of yours if she goes for a 360 spin in the wurlitzer.

C) It's a potentially harmful move (eg drop) and can be harmful if misinterpretted - only dance it with specific people and always preface it with the same unusual (but simple) move (in effect using a move as a signal)

Thoughts?

Christopher

[Saxylady]

Personally I'm not fond of them in case I'm mis-heard "I** g**in* to d* a *a****** dr**" isn't the greatest signal ever, but it depends on the music etc.

Quite! My usual response to a lead telling me what's coming next is to say "Eh?..What?...".

If I do catch what they say I'm usually thinking, "Help - I dunno what that is, hope they can lead it".

I love dancing with leads who don't tell me moves but simply change what they do if I don't quite do what they had in mind.

The exception is that I'm very happy for a lead to give warning of / ask permission for a drop.

[ChrisA]

I love dancing with leads who don't tell me moves but simply change what they do if I don't quite do what they had in mind.

You mean some don't?

What do they do then?

[TiggsTours]

Personally I'm not fond of them in case I'm mis-heard "I** g**in* to d* a *a****** dr**" isn't the greatest signal ever, but it depends on the music etc.

My current solutions are
A) It's a safe move that can misinterpretted in a safe way (eg potentially any beginners move danced with a beginner.) - be aware of what can happen and flow with what the lady decides to dance.

B) It's a safe move when done properly (eg wurlitizer), but can be harmful if misinterpretted - only dance it with experienced dancers and be ready to lead the appropriate different move if it's misinterpretted eg let her hand slip out of yours if she goes for a 360 spin in the wurlitzer.

C) It's a potentially harmful move (eg drop) and can be harmful if misinterpretted - only dance it with specific people and always preface it with the same unusual (but simple) move (in effect using a move as a signal)

Thoughts?

Christopher

Perfect.

[David Bailey]

If the guy can't lead it properly, then he shouldn't do it!

I used to think there were exceptions to this rule - for example, the "Duck" instruction to tell the lady to, well, duck. But then I realised that even this could be led without a verbal signal.

So I'm now coming to the conclusion that very few moves, even choreographed ones, can't be led. And, if a part of a choreographed move isn't followed, a good leader should be able to adjust the lead to compensate (in other words, I should always have a Plan B).