Leading: When does a push become a shove

[Merovingian]

There have been many threads on how much tension is important in leading, but something that has plagued me since my first day in class, doing the first move, has been .. the right hand.

In the first few weeks of my classes a few ladies were annoyed about how some of the leaders push 'em too hard or pull back too much (these ladies were not beginners), which has lead me to be gentle when leading the moves; and I have been leading a number of beginners and intermediate moves with varying degree of success, but sometimes dancing with some of the experienced followers I seem to get the comment "don't be so gentle with me" or "you can hold tighter".

Now that's embarassing

But the question here is when does a push become a shove?

When trying something like a sway, how much of a hold is necessary and how much is acceptable?

When trying something like the catapult / crossed return / first move surprise i.e. where the leaders are supposed to relocate the followers, how much of a pull is acceptable? (is it really an attempt at physical relocation, or just an indication and some help )

erm .. help?

[Ghost]

But the question here is when does a push become a shove?
erm .. help?

It depends (sorry ). The following are all generalities based on my limited experience.

I've been described as "like dancing with feathers". Not everyone I dance with feels this is a good thing.

In general, lady taxi dancers seem to develop more tension in their arms ( I believe as a defence against beginner leads yanking them around ). As such they prefer a stronger lead (note prefer - they can still follow a soft lead )

Speed seems to be the other factor. The faster dancers prefer a stronger lead, which again if you're really moving is not unreasonable. Slower dancers prefer a softer lead

Playfull dancers seem to work best with a soft lead so they have more space to interpret the music -

The more intricate the moves the softer the lead too - when I lead Jango moves it's a strange blend of a very strong frame, but a very soft lead (Kind of a yin-yang thing)

Ultimately do what you want and listen to feedback. If you can remember who likes a stronger lead, then it's up to you if you want to provide it. It's probably worth considering that as long as your moves are fluid and the elbows don't extend fully, you can use a lot of force in your lead without yanking (Kinda scary actually - you can lead with far more force than it'll take to pop a joint )

Be Well,
Christopher

[El Salsero Gringo]

Here's a suggestion: designers of theme-park rides measure four parameters along each axis - velocity, acceleration, jolt, and jounce - each being the derivative w.r.t. time of the previous one. An exciting ride needs a sufficient quantity of both jolt and jounce at various points in time.

In respect of the force you need to apply to an object of fixed mass, a constant force provides a constant acceleration, a force that increases linearly with time will provide a constant jolt, and a force that increases quadratically in time gives a constant jounce.

Since (I suppose) a nice dance is probably diametrically opposed in feel to a ride at a theme-park, how about arranging the force exerted upon the follower through the lead points to minimise the a) jounce and b) jolt experienced by the follower while still moving the follower's arm/hip/[insert lead point] from one position of the move to the next consistent with remaining in time with the music.

I also remember a research project that sought to establish that the body controlled its own motion in dynamic reaching tasks (like moving your hand to intercept a moving object) in such a way as to minimize the fourth time derivative of position (that would be correlate with the jounce as defined above). Supposing that having your body lead in a simlar way to the way it would move itself would be comfortable, minimizing the jounce seems like a good idea.

I should add that I look forward to David Franklin telling me I'm talking a complete load of *******s.

[Ghost]

Here's a suggestion: designers of theme-park rides measure four parameters along each axis - velocity, acceleration, jolt, and jounce - each being the derivative w.r.t. time of the previous one. An exciting ride needs a sufficient quantity of both jolt and jounce at various points in time.

(snip)
Since (I suppose) a nice dance is probably diametrically opposed in feel to a ride at a theme-park,

What about an exciting dance? (This is actually intended as a serious question - I'm thinking more of velocity and acceleration, but jolts could be like yo-yo block direction changes? Jounces would be drops maybe?) - could you then increase the amount of force used?

Be Well,
Christopher

[David Franklin]

I should add that I look forward to David Franklin telling me I'm talking a complete load of *******s.

Sorry to dissapoint, but I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. (I'd not heard about the research on human movement, but it wouldn't particularly surprise me).

The only thing I'd add is that as a practical point when dancing, if you use a lot of force, you want to make sure your partner is expecting it. This is all kind of implicit in the jolt/jounce discussion - if you minimise the jolt, you don't change the acceleration (force) suddenly, so your partner knows what to expect. But your partner may also get advance warning from your grip, or from a change in the music, or even a verbal lead.

What about an exciting dance? (This is actually intended as a serious question - I'm thinking more of velocity and acceleration, but jolts could be like yo-yo block direction changes? Jounces would be drops maybe?) - could you then increase the amount of force used?

As ESG says, the amount of force corresponds to the amount of acceleration - not the jolt or jounce. In simpler terms, using a lot of force is not necessarily a bad thing, but suddenly using a lot of force almost certainly is.

As for doing dips and drops, I've come to the conclusion that you should do them smoothly if you want to avoid injuries. You can do sharp snappy drops, but you and your partner will be taking a lot of the strain on your joints and tendons, which isn't great for long term health. Fine if it's your competition partner and you agree to do the moves like that, but in general freestyle it's not a good plan.

[DavidB]

For normal vertical dancing (ie no drops, leans or aerials) then the force comes from the lady's legs, not the mans arms.

Any lady who says you need to be stronger should stop being lazy and move herself. Laziness is the man's job.

[El Salsero Gringo]

For normal vertical dancing (ie no drops, leans or aerials) then the force comes from the lady's legs, not the mans arms.

Any lady who says you need to be stronger should stop being lazy and move herself. Laziness is the man's job.

Not always. Aside from the fact that I think you're confusing force with energy ("the energy comes from the lady's legs..."), how would you lead the lady into a triple spin on the spot without more force than you'd use for a single spin? How do you indicate that you want to double-time a move except to lead it faster - which you can only do with extra force?

[ducasi]

In the first few weeks of my classes ...

I think this is the crucial line in Merovingian's post... In classes moves are often done in a start-stop way, so there can be lots of pushing and shoving that shouldn't happen in dancing for real as all the steps in the moves are smoothed out.

[MartinHarper]

Thanks to ESG for a very good technical post. I learned something.

The phrases I try to remember are "body lead" vs "arm lead". If you lead the girl by waving your arms around, it's very easy to give her lots of jolt and jounce without really meaning to. On the other hand, because:

the body controlls its own motion ... in such a way as to minimize the (jounce)

... it therefore follows that if your arms are leading the girl as a consequence of movement of your body, then you will naturally minimise the amount of jounce you give her. An example would be the "Ceroc Spin" - you can lead the spin by turning your body, so your arms only move as a consequence of you turning your body. This pretty much guarantees that your lead will be decent. Oh, and it's meant to look better than standing still.

When trying something like a sway, how much of a hold is necessary and how much is acceptable?

You can hold about as much as a strong hug. A strong hold can make it easier lead/follow some moves, as the girl can feel where the whole of your body is, but I wouldn't say it's necessary. Most folks like being hugged anyway, so don't be shy.

[Gadget]

... sometimes dancing with some of the experienced followers I seem to get the comment "don't be so gentle with me" or "you can hold tighter".

I would say from the information given(*) that you seem to be "loseing" your connection with your partner, then re-establishing it further down the lead when the follower has caught up with you. The problem here is not really that your lead is too light, but that it is not consistant. To the follower, it seems that the contact is hesitant and as soon as they feel some pressure, you remove it again - hence the comments.

(*...this is deduction and supposition; I may be talking a load of manure)

But the question here is when does a push become a shove?

When you exceed the amount of force needed to actually move your partner. Then it's a shove. The amount of resistance and pressure you give in your lead should equal what the follower is giving you in their responsiveness.

A simple test is leading them forward while you step back: try to keep the hand in exactly the same place relative to your body and gently step back; what you feel in the connection when the follower moves towards you is roughly the amount of force needed to lead them during the rest of the dance. Obviously this will change as you guide the follower through the dance, but it should be the base to work up and down from.

I have led men who have just starting to follow where I needed to bully them through the moves; move them and stop them - I have led ladies that move with the lightest flexing of my finger tips. I can dance with/lead both because I equal the force given in the connection.

When trying something like a sway, how much of a hold is necessary and how much is acceptable?

Enough to move them; again, a constant lead with tension pulling your partner towards you, then leading them with the hand out to the side to start them turning,and stepping forward yourself and pushing the hand forward to finish the turn and collect them at your side.
Too much? dragging the follower through the move.
Too little? as long as the follower can follow, you should be able to air-lead this with no contact.

When trying something like the catapult / crossed return / first move surprise i.e. where the leaders are supposed to relocate the followers, how much of a pull is acceptable? (is it really an attempt at physical relocation, or just an indication and some help )

Neither - it's a guide. If you take your child's hand to have them follow you, you wouldn't pull at it and drag them along with you (normally ) and you don't give a light tug and see if they move where you want to: you provide a constant pull in the right direction.

If you are moving the follower accross the floor (or swapping places), you need the same force as if you were leading them on the spot, the only difference is that you are moving more. How much force dose it take to get a follower to take a step forward at the second count? Why should it take any more to lead them to take another step? or more?

Spins & turns; I have danced with ladies that can spin until they bore a hole in the ground - I'm learning that primaraly I need to give them a stable platform to push off of; if they want to do multiples, they will push off harder. If I push, I will most likley send them off balance - they are pushing off me and I am pushing off them; the force I give is doubled when the follower gets it.
Again, I have found that a constant lead can dictate the speed of the turn rather than abrupt 'shove' that just says "Spin. Now.".

[timbp]

Next time you catch a bus, stand up. Cup your hand around a pole -- no thumbs, no gripping, keep your arm as relaxed as possible while maintaing your frame -- and feel the compression and resistance as you maintain your position while the bus moves.

Do it on a few buses, so you can experience the difference between the driver who approaches the lights at full speed then slams on the brakes, then slams down the accelerator as soon as the lights go green, compared with the driver who slows to a smooth stop and accelerates smoothly.

Decide which experience felt better, and try to replicate that feeling for your follower.

[TheTramp]

But the question here is when does a push become a shove?

Are you regretting this question yet?

It all seemed soooo innocent. As a newcomer, you just didn't know what to expect.

Whatever you do, please don't get onto such threads as:

"Should the man actually move his feet when leading"
"What are acceptable ethics in opening up your own dance class"

And definitely not:

"Should smoking be allowed near the dance floor"

(Just a mild warning!)

[Merovingian]

Are you regretting this question yet?

It all seemed soooo innocent. As a newcomer, you just didn't know what to expect.

Whatever you do, please don't get onto such threads as:

"Should the man actually move his feet when leading"
"What are acceptable ethics in opening up your own dance class"

And definitely not:

"Should smoking be allowed near the dance floor"

(Just a mild warning!)

Thanks for the warning !

... fascinating information here actually. I think the problem with these kind of questions is that there is no straight answer, I was expecting something along the lines of what Ghost <a href="http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8652#2">*</A> && Gadget <a href="http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8652#13">*</a> mentioned, and some suggestions.

(There is just so much useful info here that I can't thank each one individually, I'm already glad that I came across this forum)

And I've filed away all this technical theory for a review about 3 months from now, when I have a better lead and more experiance

Though I would try and stay away from jounces ( for now )

[MartinHarper]

Kevin + Carla, Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen, video's been linked before:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...in+carla+lindy

There's a nice little move that's done at both 1m10 and 2m50, which seems to be a decent illustration of ESG's point about redirecting momentum. One thing I noticed is that Carla is controlling her own moment of inertia in order to make that redirection very easy. By contrast, a loaded shopping trolley has a large and fixed moment of inertia, and so is harder to dance with.

[Saxylady]

By contrast, a loaded shopping trolley ...is harder to dance with.

than all ladies - or just Carla??

[David Franklin]

Kevin + Carla, Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen, video's been linked before:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...in+carla+lindy

There's a nice little move that's done at both 1m10 and 2m50

I'm having lots of trouble with the google player, so I can only get about 1 second of play at a time, but the two moves I'm seeing at 1m10 and 2m50 aren't terribly similar, so I can't really see what you mean. As a general comment, I think Lindy isn't a great dance to take examples from - there are many Lindy scenarios where the lead does have to provide significant force, while such scenarios are exceedingly rare in MJ or WCS outside of leveraged moves. (The other exception I find in MJ is that involved in rapid 'paired turns' like pivot turns or penguin walks).

which seems to be a decent illustration of ESG's point about redirecting momentum.

There's nothing "magic" about redirecting momentum. In other words, you can't say "it would be exceedingly painful to apply enough force to stop someone moving at 10m/s in one direction and send her back the same way in 2 beats, but because I just redirected her momentum it's OK". You cannot redirect momentum without applying a force. It's almost a definition: force = rate of change of momentum. You may do no work in applying that force (as is the case in an idealised Lindy whip), but that's a different question. I suspect you actually apply a higher average force doing a Lindy type whip than a WCS whip (in the case of an idealised Lindy whip I think the average force is PI/2 times that in an idealised WCS one). As for redirection being easy, as I said before, we do possibly the "ultimate" momentum redirection move (continuous floorsweep), and the tension required is about 100kg!

One thing I noticed is that Carla is controlling her own moment of inertia in order to make that redirection very easy. By contrast, a loaded shopping trolley has a large and fixed moment of inertia, and so is harder to dance with.

It's hard to know what you're talking about given I can't identify the move reliably, but I would be surprised if the moment of inertia of Carla (as opposed to the Kevin/Carla system) was significant on a whip-like move (as opposed to a spin).

[MartinHarper]

I'm having lots of trouble with the google player, so I can only get about 1 second of play at a time, but the two moves I'm seeing at 1m10 and 2m50 aren't terribly similar

I thought video would be clearer than a text description - ho hum. 1m11 -> 1m15, 2m51 -> 2m57. Carla is lead forward onto her right foot, blocked by a high R-R flat handhold, and spun clockwise a few times. It's not a whip-like move, no. Simple move, been taught it in both MJ and Lindy. Lindy followers tend to attack the move more, so the momentum redirection is more obvious.

I think Lindy isn't a great dance to take examples from - there are many Lindy scenarios where the lead does have to provide significant force.

I think the learning point from Lindy is that it's ok to apply moderate forces. It doesn't have to be hard work (in either a physics or a layman sense), it doesn't have to be painful, and it doesn't have to be bad dancing. I guess you could argue that it's bad modern jive, but that would require a definition of MJ, which is always going to be a struggle.

---

One way to put things into perspective: if I stand on the ball of one foot, I'm experiencing a force of ~60kg (ok, 600N) through a fairly small area. If I jump up in the air, I'm experiencing a 1g acceleration downwards. Neither of these things are painful or require heavy effort. Also, there's no contradiction between using moderate forces when dancing and maintaining a DavidB-like disdain for the expenditure of energy.

[David Franklin]

I thought video would be clearer than a text description - ho hum. 1m11 -> 1m15, 2m51 -> 2m57.

I think it's better to give times to the second (as you have above), or if only approximate times give descriptions as well. (Plus I was looking for a whip-like move following previous discussion). Having looked at the move, I'd say the energy involved in the spin is roughly 20-25% of that involved in my whip example. So yes, it's possible for Kevin to be providing a fair proportion of the force required - but then the force isn't that great anyhow. And that's when you're taking the speeds in a performance Lindy demo and comparing to speeds I took from a beginner's teaching WCS clip.

But it's not the example I'd have chosen from Lindy or even that clip - there are some swingouts near the end that I'm sure had some fairly serious counterbalancing going on. Counterbalancing where both partners are rotating as a unit is the one "common" scenario I can think of where the lead actually supplies a force for its own sake rather than simply as a leading mechanism. (In other words where the lead has to have a certain amount of force or the move won't work). But this is far more common in Lindy than in Modern Jive, although I've given examples in MJ somewhere above.

One way to put things into perspective: if I stand on the ball of one foot, I'm experiencing a force of ~60kg (ok, 600N) through a fairly small area.

But we don't (usually!) lead with the ball of the foot, and legs are far far stronger than arms. Otherwise everyone would be able to do 1-handed overhead lifts with no difficulty.

If I jump up in the air, I'm experiencing a 1g acceleration downwards. Neither of these things are painful or require heavy effort.

Coming from someone who understands physics, this seems a somewhat disingenious point. Play fair, Martin.

[MartinHarper]

But we don't (usually!) lead with the ball of the foot, and legs are far far stronger than arms.

Yeah, doing a handstand or hanging from some bars is harder than just standing, and harder than I'd want to work when dancing. Even there, a handstand isn't painful - just uncomfortable.

Coming from someone who understands physics, this seems a somewhat disingenious point. Play fair, Martin.

Perhaps. My point is just that there's nothing inherent in being smoothly accelerated that needs to be unpleasant. Gravity is painless, but the sudden deceleration upon hitting the ground can sting a bit.

[Keith J]

Good Q!, lets see if this helps...
Firstly, it possibly depends on the ladies experience and yours as a lead, and measuring the required response. Let me add 'it ain't necessarily so' that the turn out is required as many advanced ladies may steal the exit to play with 'styling'. The intent and lead is gone at that juncture.

The etiquette suggests one gives a signal, if its not followed never ever persist, (this being a no pain experience). Allow what happens to occur you may be surprised at some pleasing results and learn something as well.