Leading

[Caro]

Well - not after what happened to the last one who tried that....

*checks whip is still in her dance bag*

*beams proudly*

[robd]

I hold my ands up and confess this is sometimes something I am guilty of, but then again I think every lead is at somepoint (though none of them on the forum would admit to it)

I'll happily admit it and did do so on the MJDA forum after a pretty poor night at the local venue.

How many times do you go to a weekly class venue only to find there is just one maybe two followers that you feel you can really have a decent dance with ??

Mostly, I agree with you Mikey. However I find my own state of mind plays a big part in whether I consider it a decent dance.

Another quote that will one day be compiled in to a thread titled "stuff said to make the forum happy".

A concensus of opinion on a particular topic doesn't mean that people hold that view 'to make the forum happy'.

[spindr]

It takes very little time to establish how experienced your follower is and a good leader should match their level of dance to that of the follower, to bamboozle them with a barrage of moves which most have never seen never mind experienced is beyond belief.

There's an underlying fallacy here:- leaders can tell if a follower can follow, but can't tell which moves they will know (unless they've done the class with them). Beginner followers are always going to come across moves that they haven't done before -- good beginner followers are likely to be led into many many "new" moves.

And then there's the question of why does a follower need to recognise a move?
SpinDr

[Lee Bartholomew]

And then there's the question of why does a follower need to recognise a move?
SpinDr

True only leaders need to know moves, unless it is one that is unleadable, of which there is many.

Maybe that is part of the problem. theres so many unleadable moves taught maybe some men dont realise that they are such.

[Twirly]

There's an underlying fallacy here:- leaders can tell if a follower can follow, but can't tell which moves they will know (unless they've done the class with them). Beginner followers are always going to come across moves that they haven't done before -- good beginner followers are likely to be led into many many "new" moves.

And then there's the question of why does a follower need to recognise a move?
SpinDr

I don’t think that it’s a question of a follow recognising a move at all, I think it’s more of a question of a follow being aware that the lead could just do anything (even something that they’ve made up on the spot) and being adaptable enough to be able to follow whatever comes along.

When a follow first starts dancing, we are taught, along with the leads, the basic moves. And (usually) the first few weeks you’re dancing if you’ve got nice considerate leads, you get mostly those sort of moves, plus a few others which can make you feel a bit panicky as they aren’t familiar. Then they become familiar, and those leads start to put other moves into the dance, and gradually, being unfamiliar with the moves becomes familiar. Then you start to get variations on moves which can throw you a bit to start with, but again, you get used to the idea that what appears to be a familiar move might halfway through turn into something completely different. And so it goes on.

Examples for me included the neckbreak, where most leads once they’ve put your right hand into theirs will just use that to turn you, but every so often they’ll do something different – take your left hand in theirs for example, so I’ve learnt to keep my left hand free and ready to be grabbed, although 95% of the time it won’t be (sorry, am not very good at describing moves and don’t know the names of most of them ). I got very confused and a bit upset the first time someone did a neckbreak variation on me (but fortunately he realised and did it again to show me).

Another is a yo-yo variation (I think ) – after the turn out, the lead passes the follow’s hand over their head and into their other hand. I used to feel a right twit as I’d put my hand on their shoulder, but then when they passed my hand over realised (from how it was taught in class) that I shouldn’t have done that. I used to worry about it, but now I don’t – without anticipating, there was no way I could have known what the lead was going to do. And that anxiety can cause hesitation in the follow.

That muscle memory thing can actually be a big handicap thing for follows – if you get a standard neckbreak 95% of the time, that’s what your body anticipates, and you have to concentrate quite hard initially to avoid that. Eventually you don’t, as it becomes natural to expect the unexpected.

[Twirly]

Also, on the point about lead’s being courteous enough to adjust to the experience of the beginner…

I’ve danced with plenty of these types of leads, and I don’t like it. They quite often turn out to be the ones who yank you around when you don’t move quite fast enough for their liking.

For those who think that the lead should dance to their own level and expect the follow to cope – would you expect a new lead to do the same if they got an experienced follow who was bored and therefore decided to hijack and play, although the lead wouldn’t have a clue what was going on? It works both ways.

[straycat]

Also, on the point about lead’s being courteous enough to adjust to the experience of the beginner…

I’ve danced with plenty of these types of leads, and I don’t like it. They quite often turn out to be the ones who yank you around when you don’t move quite fast enough for their liking.

Surely that is not adjusting to the beginner. It sounds like someone doing the direct opposite...

[Twirly]

Surely that is not adjusting to the beginner. It sounds like someone doing the direct opposite...

I should've said "not being courteous enough to adjust to the beginner". The type of dancer hinksfield was talking about.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Going to come to defence of un named man....

Compensating your lead is something leaders learn. It takes abit of time. I have been dancing two years almost and only just feel that im starting to get it right. Of course there are dancers whome you can not compensate for.

Also did any of un named mans teachers tell the classes he was attending about compensating your lead.

Leaders in general have a harder time than followers in that they have more to consider and learn.

[straycat]

I should've said "not being courteous enough to adjust to the beginner". The type of dancer hinksfield was talking about.

Ah. Gotcha. Sorry. Easily confused, me

[Twirly]

Going to come to defence of un named man....

Compensating your lead is something leaders learn. It takes abit of time. I have been dancing two years almost and only just feel that im starting to get it right. Of course there are dancers whome you can not compensate for.

Also did any of un named mans teachers tell the classes he was attending about compensating your lead.

Leaders in general have a harder time than followers in that they have more to consider and learn.

True, but since he was also executing lots of fancy moves in the description provided, it's probably safe to assume that he wasn't a beginner isn't it? And you'd therefore have thought that he would've known that.

But yes, it is something that ought to be taught, or at least mentioned from time to time.

[MartinHarper]

Would you expect a new lead to do the same if they got an experienced follow who was bored and therefore decided to hijack and play, although the lead wouldn’t have a clue what was going on?

I'd rather that the experienced follower hijacked and played rather than have her get bored and therefore decide to dance less with beginner leads, or just dance less. Dancing with beginners is important, so I am hesitant to criticise people for the manner in which they dance with beginners.
Having said that, if she's good she should be able to embellish a beginner lead substantially without needing to hijack or otherwise disrupt the leader.

[David Bailey]

If I cannot have a decent dance with someone, it's because I haven't done a good enough job of leading her.

Mmm.... I'm a Lead Nazi, and even I wouldn't go that far.

The follower (especially in a loose-contact dance like MJ) does have some responsibility for and input into the dance. In fact, especially for the more "invitational" leads, poor (not neceassirly beginner, just poor) followers can really cause problems, no matter how good a lead you are.

Don't get me wrong, tt's not an unreasonable general principle, but I think you've stated it more strongly than I would have.

I'd say something more general like "The better I get at leading, the more good dances I find I have" - it's like the famous quote about luck, "Funny, the more I practice, the luckier I seem to get "

[straycat]

Mmm.... I'm a Lead Nazi, and even I wouldn't go that far.

So what's one step beyond a lead-Nazi?

This is a yardstick I apply to myself - and I certainly don't apply it to others. And I don't beat myself up if I don't consider myself to have lead well enough in a dance - but I do try to work out why, and how I can do it better next time. It's just my own philosophy, and it works for me. Sure - some follows might manage to make life a little harder for me, but that that just adds to the challenge - and the more I learn to adapt to, and overcome these challenges, the better a leader I'll be!

Or so I hope....

I'd say something more general like "The better I get at leading, the more good dances I find I have" - it's like the famous quote about luck, "Funny, the more I practice, the luckier I seem to get "

Very much