Is Ceroc a dance or an organisation?

[Floyd]

After many years of attending Ceroc events, and after a few days of perusing this forum, I am well aware that a large number of people believes that the dance they 'do' at Ceroc events is called Ceroc. People say things like 'can we Ceroc to this?', 'is it Cerocable?', they talk about 'dancing Ceroc'. And so on; the list of variations is endless.

Sometimes, of course, it is simply used as shorthand, but the widespread incorrect use of the word 'Ceroc' has created a general perception that Ceroc is a dance. The truth is the Ceroc is just one of many organisations teaching a form of jive. A very successful organisation, but that is not the point.

I have even heard people say, when the opportunity of attending a non-Ceroc, jive event comes up, '...but I can't jive...'. What do they think they are doing when they attend Ceroc events, I wonder. We don't talk about 'BSMing' when we mean driving...

Why is this? Does it matter? Does anyone else care?

[TheTramp]

Floyd,

I quite agree with you. But I don't think that this sort of thing is limited to dance/ceroc. Examples are:

Hamburgers - how many people go to get a hamburger, and how many go to get a MacDonald?

Football. People go to watch football, but would quite often refer to it by the name of the club they watch.

Indeed, it's only in certain parts of the country that ceroc would be used as the way to describe the local jive night. In Bristol and Brighton, then people would say 'can you LeRoc to this'. Indeed, when I first started dancing in Brighton, I was known as 'Ceroc Steve' (although, that's now changed!).

Personally, I call it jive, but I really don't think that it matters too much - except when people start to think that their own organisation is the limit to 'jiving'.

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Floyd
The truth is the Ceroc is just one of many organisations teaching a form of jive. A very successful organisation, but that is not the point.

Ahhhh .. actualy the name Ceroc came before the phrase 'Modern Jive' ... and we certainly don't JIVE ... appraently thats another term for Rock'n'Roll ... OK ... I stand to be corrected on all the above but this i what I've been told by sage dancers who were there at the 'beginning'. When Messr Cronin brought back the original French 'Le Roc' .... he apparently modified both the dance and developed the teaching style and presnetation. Ceroc (appears to be) as much about its delivery as about the moves and 'dance style'.

So .. I would have to say that, from what I've been told, Ceroc IS a dance style ... though what others teach (LeROC etc ) is very similar ... but who was first?

Why is this? Does it matter? Does anyone else care?

Well ... on the inside of all this, away from the dancefloor ... there has been a lot of debate/argument/threats etc. But if you're just here for the dancing .... then no ... just dance where you feel free to and let the 'Organisations' worry about the politics.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Hamburgers - how many people go to get a hamburger, and how many go to get a MacDonald?

Never heard anyone use that particular terminology unless they actually meant McDonalds but I know what you mean. The most common one is to ask for a 'coke' when you want a cola (coke being a trademark fo Coca Cola). Or talking about your 'hoover' when you have a Dysan vaccum cleaner etc..

as far as Ceroc goes Ive only over noticed people who only dance Ceroc to refer to jive as Ceroc, all the Le Roc people I know refer to it as 'Jive' or 'French jive' as that is the dance style. I disagree with Gus on this, Ceroc is certainly not a style in itself. there are plenty other companies that dominate teaching particular dances to the public in certain areas but their name doesnt become synonymous with the style of dance. This is probably mostly due to Ceroc being so well organized but insular, even to the point of not really advertising non-ceroc dancing - it propogates the myth, especcially to new people, that Ceroc is a dance - when it isnt - its prime feature is in its structure and teaching of jive, the moves differ round the whole of the jive world anyway or even within Ceroc itself. e.g. I learnt a move at a Ceroc class in London that had the same signal as a different move taught at an Edinburgh Ceroc class - so its not anymore confusing to learn moves at a non-ceroc jive class and use them at a Ceroc night...much less confusing sometimes. I think the 'who was first' is meaningless as modern jive is derived from French Jive. Anyway isnt 'Glasgow Jive' much older than Ceroc in the UK ?

[Lou]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
all the Le Roc people I know refer to it as 'Jive' or 'French jive' as that is the dance style.

With the exception of me, that is! Oooh... and I call my Dyson "the Dyson".

[Floyd]

I actually call my vacuum cleaner manufactured by hoover a vacuum cleaner

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
. I disagree with Gus on this, Ceroc is certainly not a style in itself. there are plenty other companies that dominate teaching particular dances to the public in certain areas but their name doesnt become synonymous with the style of dance

Anyway isnt 'Glasgow Jive' much older than Ceroc in the UK ?

The point I was trying to make is that Ceroc was FIRST .... so therefore it ia 'alleged' that the other styles/associations copied Ceroc. Interstingly enough the Godfather of LeRoc in the UK (sorry forgot his name) claims in his book that a young James Cronin came to him with the idea to expand LeRoc ... into what was to become Ceroc. However, my contact who 'was there at the time' suggested that this was not the truth .... allegedly.

So dunno .... if the claim that Ceroc was the first to the market with its own blend of French Jive .,.. then it can rightly claim to be a dance style. The only other association that appears to have any claim would be LeRoc ... and even being in the game the short space I ahve I've seen obvious moves from some LeRoc operations to copy Ceroc ...so who knows the truth ... well unless James himself goes to print ... I doubt we will ever know

[Floyd]

Jive existed long before Ceroc appeared. Ceroc has simply taken a load of moves from other forms of dance and now uses a successful format for putting them across. Sure, it has given moves new names and also adopted the very tedious practise of stringing loads of them together, giving them a long and tedious name and pretending it's yet another move. When you break them down there really are not that many moves taught by Ceroc - but that's another point entirely.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Floyd
Jive existed long before Ceroc appeared. Ceroc has simply taken a load of moves from other forms of dance and now uses a successful format for putting them across

Sorry ... but have to disagree with this. Jive is/was something else. Jive was originaly a term for Rock'n'Roll. Look at what Kav Kavanaugh (world Jive champ) teaches ... THATS jive ... as he says authentic 1950's jive.....and he quite clear it is NOT Modern Jive.

As I said ... what Ceroc teach is something that James Cronin (OR LeROC) developed and so is clearly a new dance. The only real debate point is what came first ... Ceroc or Modern Jive?

PS: nice debate but bit like establishing the origins of Stone Henge ... interesting but not really of much impact these days....

[TheTramp]

I'm not sure, and am prepared to be shot down in flames on this one...

Does it actually matter who came first? Ceroc is still an organisation, whether they developed the style or not. The style is still jive, whether you call it modern, or French.

Someone developed Rock & Roll. But whoever it was, is long forgotten, and it's the style that remains. I guess it's possible that originally there was a company called 'Rock & Roll', but it's probably unlikely.

I imagine that one day in the future, there is the possibility that the organisation will no longer exist, but the dance will still be there. It's unlikely that it will be called ceroc in that case.

Once again, I'm not sure that I've put across quite what I mean. I'm prepared for debate!! (If anyone is still interested and awake!!)

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Does it actually matter who came first? Ceroc is still an organisation, whether they developed the style or not. The style is still jive, whether you call it modern, or French.
Steve

Fair point ... don't think it really matters (unless you are in business of modern jive then it can matter lots....).

The intersting thing is that I'm yet to hear anyone define what Modern Jive is. Ceroc is whatever Ceroc teach ..... not sure if taht makes any more or any less sense.

Re it being called JIVE .... sorry .. that I really do have a problem with. say JIVE to Jo Puiblic and they're thinking retro dancing, quiffed haircuts and rock around the clock ... no wonder we've got an image problem! The whole reason I got into Ceroc/Modern Jive was that I could dance it to modern music at places where normal people go i.e. parties, weddings, nightclubs ... not just some little village hall somewhere... personal view entirely

Jusr re-rad what I wrote. Ceroc CAN be all things to all people ... some popel like the retro-R&R thing ... and thats great. Its just that I don't ... each to their own etc.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Floyd
Sometimes, of course, it is simply used as shorthand, but the widespread incorrect use of the word 'Ceroc' has created a general perception that Ceroc is a dance. The truth is the Ceroc is just one of many organisations teaching a form of jive. A very successful organisation, but that is not the point.

Hi Floyd, and welcome to the Forum.

The premise you raise, while interesting, is too limiting to do the subject proper credit.

Ceroc is a dance in its own right. The moves and styles of music are clearly defined. It does however cover such a wide range of musical styles as well as dance styles, that you could also say that Ceroc was a form of Salsa, or a form of Swing, as well as a form of Jive...
Ceroc takes its inspiration from the French form of Jive, referred to as "Rock'n Roll" in France, often shortened to "le rock", as in "Tu sais danser le rock?".
French Rock'n Roll, as discussed in another thread is already very different from the British version(s) of Jive, but both took their inspiration from the American GIs during the second world war...

Ceroc is also an organization with a stated aim to promote dancing to as wide an audience as possible. It also provides the best training infrastructure for all Ceroc teachers and a network of support for all new and existing franchisees. Opening a new night in a new area is tough and can take a lot of time and effort. Ceroc, as an organization, has been very successful at opening in new areas of the UK and in the process, created a huge market and appetite for other dance styles.

This is where your premise: dance vs organization fails though. Ceroc is both, but ultimately, Ceroc is much more than either. Ceroc is a concept, whereby you could take complex dances / moves and simplify them to their essence, where footwork and musical style don't matter anymore.
Ceroc is (and hopefully will remain IMHO) a place where everyone is welcome, and where any style (or lack thereof) does not matter as long as the participants are having fun and enjoying their own dance with their partner!
Of course, Ceroc did not invent dancing, or most moves, but it did create a way of teaching the moves that made them accessible to anyone, whether they have 2 left feet or not.

In the light of the above, whether people choose to call the dance Ceroc or something else, does not really matter, but the reason they do (and the dictionary + a few recent novels agree) is that there is no other 'suitable' word for what is a new(ish) concept. Modern Jive / French Jive are more descriptions than names.

I hope the above helps (though I agree it's probably to long )

Franck.

P.S. I agree about the overly long moves as well, eventhough, they serve a purpose as they offer ideas / variations that might not occur to the less experienced dancer.

[TheTramp]

Thanks for clearing that up then Franck!

I even read all the post

Steve

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by Floyd
Jive existed long before Ceroc appeared. Ceroc has simply taken a load of moves from other forms of dance and now uses a successful format for putting them across....

Yes- I agree with you Floyd. I was at a ceroc class recently where we were taught a mambo move, and another last month where we did some lindy kicks. Ceroc however has cleverly adapted moves from other styles and put them into a simplistic format making it a very accessible dance style. It could be construed as bit synthetic, and I have heard some refer to it as a stepping stone to 'proper' dancing.

I think it is a great concept thought. I am not really bothered whether or not it's a dance form in it's own right, but I think it deserves to be after x(?) years.

James Cronin... he must be well bolted!

[TheTramp]

James Cronin... he must be well bolted

It's not true. I've seen James on several occasions, and I can confidently state that he doesn't have any bolts what-so-ever. He doesn't even have an earring. I can't speak for any interesting piercings though. You'll have to ask Janie that one....

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
James Cronin... he must be well bolted!

Translate?

[TheTramp]

Well.....you've seen Frankenstein, haven't you....

Least, that's what I took it to mean

Steve

[DavidB]

Definition
I still haven't found a decent definition of Modern Jive. The best I can come up with is:
"Modern Jive is a lead-follow partner dance, based around a combination of simple 2-count walked steps. There is no fixed footwork, and virtually any variations can and do get used. The timing emphasises the downbeat, with the lead on the upbeat. Most leads are hand-to-hand, in an open position. The dance is usually circular, as opposed to being slotted, and typically there is movement from both the leader and the follower."

(The US Swing Dance Server describes it as: "The French form of the dance, where there is NO footwork, so it's very easy. These make up for that by doing very complex 6/8 beat moves with the arms. Looks very good for a while, but is mechanical, and contains little expression. ")

Is Ceroc a dance.
Sorry - no. I would only consider it to be THE name for the dance if:
- non-Cerocers only used the name Ceroc, and no other name.
- only Ceroc taught it at the beginning, and for the first few years
- Ceroc took it to an established dance body and asked for it to be formalised.
- Ceroc allowed the name to be used by anyone else

I know Ceroc didn't invented the dance. The only common theme to any of the claims are that it started in France, not London. The first people to teach it (whoever they are) learned it in France. It seems to have its roots in the single-step swing of the '60s, and the 3 & 4 count hustle & Disco-fox if the '70s. Ceroc might have helped develop the dance in the early years, but not recently. (Sorry - I don't think of new combinations of moves is 'developing' the dance.)

But Ceroc is definitely a major influence on Modern Jive. They are the largest organisation that teach Jive. They have standardised the teaching, and introduced different combinations of moves. They have set up a large number of classes around the country. Most importantly they have got a huge number of people dancing, and enjoying it.

Is Ceroc a style?
To me that means you have to be able to recognise a distinct difference between people who have only done Ceroc classes, compared to those who have learned another style of Modern Jive (from a non-Ceroc teacher!)

David

PS Ceroc did not invent good teaching, or simplifying dancing, or including other dance styles, or stringing together moves. They do not have a monopoly on teaching non-dancers to have fun, or dancing to a range of musical styles & tempos. Jive is not the only dance where you don't have to do footwork, or can improvise.

[TheTramp]

Ceroc allowed the name to be used by anyone else

Actually, I think that's the best reason for not calling it a style that has been put forward.

Steve

PS. Thanks for the dance on Saturday David. I enjoyed it, even if I do have a way to go on my following!!!

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
I know Ceroc didn't invented the dance. The only common theme to any of the claims are that it started in France, not London. The first people to teach it (whoever they are) learned it in France.

Ceroc never started in France as such, the inspiration for Ceroc in the UK (London to start with), came from France. To its great loss, France does not have any Ceroc (or other similar) dance classes / nights. Most Rock'n roll classes in France are very similar to the format used in Jive / Swing classes in the UK, with a strong emphasis on footwork / technique.
The only reason France inspired the creation of Ceroc, was that most French people are either very lazy or very relaxed, and they would take a few classes to pick up a few useful moves, and then proceed to make up the rest on any dance floor; with the main aim to be able to ask a girl for a dance!
That general attitude is what you can see at most French Balls, discos, clubs, etc... There are (quite) a few serious dancers in France, and from my experience, they spend their time criticizing those that dance for personal enjoyment rather than show!
I learnt a bit of French Rock'n Roll when I was 12/14 in secondary school, picked up a few moves, was pretty useless at it, but it served me in reasonably good stead at all the 14th July dances, so I did not have to be a wallflower

PS Ceroc did not invent good teaching, or simplifying dancing, or including other dance styles, or stringing together moves. They do not have a monopoly on teaching non-dancers to have fun, or dancing to a range of musical styles & tempos. Jive is not the only dance where you don't have to do footwork, or can improvise.

Indeed not, Ceroc did not invent any of those things in isolation, but certainly brought them all together and standardized them across all Ceroc classes.
We do not have a monopoly on teaching non-dancers to have fun, but again from my perspective / experience, most other dance classes take the technique / footwork so seriously that they put off new people before they get the chance to discover the fun aspects! I would be interested in hearing otherwise though, and I agree, that there must be classes out there that deliver, but not on the same scale and with the same guarantees as Ceroc!
The only exception I know, is Ceilidh dancing in Scotland, where everyone gives it a go, everyone learns the basic steps on the night (if required) and most people don't care if things don't work out, they just laugh it off and keep dancing!
I wish there was more of that in the dance world!

Franck.