MJ critique class: would you?

[Caro]

Following discussions on this thread, it begged the question whether or not people would be ready for a critique class in ML/Ceroc (see definition in the linked thread).

So... let's see if there's any taker?

[under par]

I would not have a problem with other casting a critical eye over my dancing nor does the public element concern me.

Any person dancing for any length of time should be continuously trying to assess how they could do better what they do IMHO.

Seeking feedback is one form of assessing. This can be by means of private lesson, privately asking partner or other observer for feedback at a public event or a critique class.

The benefit of hearing public comment on a dance viewed in a public area would be for the group in general who could hear informed opinion on what they have seen.
For the dancer who is being critiqued they would benefit IF they bother to LISTEN to the range of opinions offered on the dance viewed and accept that they are just opinions of persons trying to help them.

Not all critique need be negative and feedback given properly should always include things done well too.

In fact I was advised about the "sh*t sandwich" feedback method. This is where you tell them what they did poorly (or sh*t) inbetween 2 good things.
eg. "You are holding your frame well, your footwork was awful and needs some improving but your musicality was good"
This is a very very basic example and needs to be followed up with actual evidence of what was good or bad and then offer a ways that aspect can be improved.

I personally am always looking for things that I can practice on or gems of wisdom that make me work on one or other part of my dancing so that I can offer the best possible lead when dancing.

[Caro]

Any person dancing for any length of time should be continuously trying to assess how they could do better what they do IMHO.

personally I totally agree with that, but the discussion in the previous thread what about whether or not the average MJ/Ceroc dancer was ready for this sort of class since:
- feeback is not part of the usual classes and people are not used to it
- the emphasis in ceroc, at least when you start, is that it's 'easy', i.e. technique is not paramount in order to have fun dancing and to achieve a reasonable social dancer level.
- the public aspect of feeback might put people who are not already confident with their dancing off.

So we were wondering if there was actually enough public for this sort of class.

[Yogi_Bear]

personally I totally agree with that, but the discussion in the previous thread what about whether or not the average MJ/Ceroc dancer was ready for this sort of class since:
- feeback is not part of the usual classes and people are not used to it
- the emphasis in ceroc, at least when you start, is that it's 'easy', i.e. technique is not paramount in order to have fun dancing and to achieve a reasonable social dancer level.
- the public aspect of feeback might put people who are not already confident with their dancing off.

So we were wondering if there was actually enough public for this sort of class.

In view of the above - with which I agree - I would say probably not. It would be beneficial (I for one would appreciate it, depending on who was giving the opinions - better not as part of a class as such) but the whole MJ culture is contrary to this.

[Chef]

I am up for this. I often ask partners in class how I might change what I do to improve (to improve the experience for my follwers), ask for feedback from teachers and have the occasional private lesson.

A few years ago a group of dancers in my area used to hire a village hall on a sunday afternoon and have a dance with each other. A good part of the afternoon was sharing stuff we had learned and getting feedback from each other about things we could change to improve the look and feel of the dance. We were not top notch technical dancers but we at least knew what we liked to see.

I would like to go through this public critique process. I have no problem chucking any ego away and getting down to work. I have learnt over many years that often the truth about yourself is painful to confront at times but how you react to that truth can either enslave you or set yourself free. If there is something I can change to make it better I would rather know sooner rather than later. I have no desire to be ignorant for one second longer than I have to be. When I stop learning and discovering things almost all the spice would have gone out of my life.

[Yogi_Bear]

So I am up for it too......maybe someone here could help organise something, say at one of the coming weekenders....? Happy to have peer review, not just teachers...don't want to be told I'm too unconventional to fit the MJ standard mould

[whitetiger1518]

I would love to get feedback..

I always feel like I am breaking the mood if I ask for feedback in the freestyle or party evenings - particularly if I am asking an off duty teacher or taxi dancer...


I never have enough time to ask or practice in class...


If a class combined a bit of feedback together with another MJ topic then I would love to sign up.

Whitetiger

[Yogi_Bear]

What I had in mind was this : let's say at one of the weekenders, or make it a regular thing, a group of people gather at say the blues room at Southport or its equivalent at a time when there isn't much else happening and take turns to dance with each other and then give feedback all round, including those dancing and those watching. This would not be a formal class, just an informal gathering. Or make it a formal class called 'modern jive technique and style feedback' or something more catchy.....

[NZ Monkey]

- the public aspect of feeback might put people who are not already confident with their dancing off.

Although I can understand why people often feel this way, it seems to me that dancing is a public activity anyway and that most of the people who dance with you will form opinions of your dancing regardless.

Maybe I’m a masochist but I’d rather hear those opinions, especially if it’s about technique and from someone with significant experience.

[Groovemeister]

I would be up for it but after doing the video thing at Breeze it is not an easy thing to do. It wouldn't be as bad if you started of with the cirtique at the begining of the MJ learning experience.

For me in changed my thinking but believe me it took a lot of debate. The hardest thing after that is going to learn or trying to eliminate the problems. Other dance forms you are constantly told about your technique until you get it with MJ there is no one telling you this week after week so it is very easy to fall back into your old habits.

I would ensure people are aware of certain things before they came on such a class such as their dance knowledge, confidence level, what there end goal was so that the critique could be tailored to suite

[janey]

I think that this would be an excellent idea. I understand that for a lot of people MJ is a purely social thing but for those of us who are keen to improve our dancing in terms of style & technique this would be really useful.

I know I have loads of bad habits & would really like advice on how to imporve them - however painful it is to hear

[sidney]

I would be in favour of a class where we could get together and improve on our style and technique as I am at a stand still where my mj is concerned so I go now to salsa where the classes are more intense but I don't like the venue or culture very much but I feel I am taxing myself once again. My cousin who is staying with me from NZ do this style of class back in NZ which she found benefical and she and her husband when they first arrived in england they went to a couple of classes but did not like the style of teaching so did not go back, things like just going through the routine no one coming around to checkyou the guy who was teaching did the talking but the lady kept quiet so no feedback for the ladies and he did not dance with the punters only if you went looking for him outside. So yes if we could have these sort of extra classes around the country on a weekend for the same price not the prices you pay for workshops which are fine now and again when I can afford it.

[Gadget]

The hardest part of this is not really trying to find something to critique uppon, but what to do to try and resolve it. Or more to the point what is happening within your dancing to cause the effects - the "why" behind the "what".

For some of the better dancers (which I think would be most of the folk up for this) it is much harder - you can only really point out what you did and didn't like, then you've got to try and work out why you didn't like it.

Then, after you have received the advice, how do you take it or apply it? Should you apply it? Does the person talking know what they are talking about? Do you understand what they think they are saying rather than what you are hearing them say?

I think that you could get a lot out of this, but there may be a danger of takeing something as gospel instead of a suggestion on improvement.

[Frankie_4711]

I would definitely be up for something like this. Although I only dance socially, that doesn't mean I don't want to improve - I am always happy to receive feedback whether good or bad, whether in a class or in freestyle (doesn't happen much, but always appreciated when it does), so to have a class/workshop/informal session dedicated especially to that would be great.

[Alice]

I think this would be a great idea I'm always looking for feedback, though people are often reticent about giving it for fear that the comments might offend or simply be unwelcome. Having a workshop or master class where everyone is encouraged to comment and discuss others' performances would be a safe environment both to give and receive feedback and suggestions for improvement. It would also create a fantastic learning environment, as you can always learn from the comments made to others...

I say bring it on

[Clueless]

I would gbe up for this as I am always looking for a way to improve my dancing and sometime it can only be done with feedback from other dancers.

[paul stevo]

This "workshop" was done at Jive Addiction`s Scarborough event last year and was the best lesson of the weekend. If I remember right one of the Aussie teachers did it.

He gave the dancers things to remark on after 30 seconds of freestyle ie. is your partner bouncing their hands or are your partners arms floppy. He`d obviously done this before because it was very polished and he`d got it down to a fine art.

He made it especially clear that a person`s critism was their opinion and therefore could not be wrong, but if you did not agree with what they said then to thank them for their help....and ignore it. However, if 4 people on the trot told you the same critism then maybe ignoring it wasn`t the answer !!!

Hopefully Scarborough this week will again have some differant classes like this.

Paul

[Caro]

it looks like what most people would like for a 'critique' class is one where people dance with each others and give themselves feedback, which although an interesting concept, wasn't the intention of this thread (critique class being one where the teacher only critiques one dancer while the others watch).

The poll looks very good, i.e. most people would want to be critiqued, however there doesn't seem to be any beginner in the list of voters, so we still don't know how that would be received in an average weekly class.
May be the option of 'too shy / not confident enough' was too intimidating in a public poll?

[under par]

This "workshop" was done at Jive Addiction`s Scarborough event last year and was the best lesson of the weekend. If I remember right one of the Aussie teachers did it.


Paul

Hi Paul yes I also did this class .. it was very well received and one of the better lessons I've been to at a weekender.

Mark and Simone Harding did the class although I seem to recall Mrs Par nearly demo'd for Mark cos Simone was feeding the baby

She managed to get on stage in time though

Maybe they'll be asked to do it again next year at SP!!

[Flat_Eric]

This "workshop" was done at Jive Addiction`s Scarborough event last year and was the best lesson of the weekend.

Great idea ! Also a very valid point about the MJ culture. I think the reconciliation can be done in the monitoring of the format and the way the feedback is offered. Not so different from many feedback mechanisms in the corporate environment.

The way I would do it:
- Definitely a workshop format in a weekender rather than a lesson. Suggestion:
x First session: 2 hours on the Saturday morning / early afternoon
x Second session: 1.5 hour on the Sunday afternoon

First session:
==========
1- Groups of 5 couples working with each other, teacher monitors the process and moves from one group to the other
2- Each person performs 1 min of freestyle with 2 other partners
3- Use a + / Delta format: tell people what you like, and what you would do differently (vs what you're doing "wrong") and how you would do it
4- At the end of their review, each member of the couple individually agrees to work on 3 things during the rest of the week-end

Second session:
============
1- One single group with all couples
2- Each couple dances for 2 minutes
3- Anonymous feedback with another "plus-delta" from the whole class
4- Snowball teambuilding type of dance to put everyone back together

- Possibly use anonymous feeback written on paper that the couple receives, shares and analyses. This element would adrress the MJ cultural element where

I would actually enjoy managing such an exercise or going through it, I think !