Hi there !
You asked for feedback on the changes to the Ceroc classes that have been implemented already this year so here goes ...
1. Appreciation.
First of all I would like to say that I appreciate that the teachers have a difficult job as they have dancers with such a wide range of ability and experience to cater for. Generally, I believe that the teachers do an excellent job.
2. The 'Warm Up'.
Currently it consists of a couple of minutes of "Salsa-like" steps. This takes place only at the start of the 'Beginners Class'. For me this is a waste of time as I normally walk about a mile to get to the class. A few extra steps make no difference. I participate in other sporting activities year-round so I understand, and partake of, the benefits of a warm-up. My feelings are that most regular dancers realise the benefits of a warm-up and already do what they feel is necessary to achieve that.
I'm not sure that having a 'Warm Up' at the start of the 'Beginners Class' is the right time for it anyway. The 'Beginners Class' is always a gentle start to the evening and the class normally starts by walking through each of the moves in turn. In other words, there is nothing too strenuous that is likely to cause anyone any problems in terms of pulled muscles etc. The evening therefore already consists of a gradual increase in the tempo which is exactly what is required.
The other aspect of the 'Warm Up' is that all the people who arrive late at the class or those that only come along for the 'Intermediate Class' miss out on it. Surely it is equally applicable to these people ?
It could perhaps be left to each persons discretion with the teacher reminding people at each class that a 'Warm Up' is recommended.
I feel that the current 'Warm Up' needs to either be developed to produce a proper 'Warm Up' or left out altogether.
I suppose that people will vote with their feet. The last couple of weeks has seen a noticeable increase in the number of people 'sitting out' the 'Warm Up'. I guess that this says it all !
3. The changed 'Beginners Moves'.
I understand that a number of the 22 'Beginners Moves' are also changing. So far, I have been taught the new 'Yoyo' where the man turns to face the lady rather than bringing her back around in front of him. I'm afraid that I can't understand the point of this as I feel that if people can do one of the moves than they can do the other.
There is also the point that all the people who only come along later in the evening for the 'Intermediate Class' are probably unaware of the changes to these moves.
Consequently a beginner will be confused when taught a move in the class only to do something different when dancing 'Freestyle'.
I understand that the 'Ladyspin' is another of the 22 'Beginners Moves' that is also changing ! This move seems to me to be so simple and basic that I can't even imagine what the change is likely to be !
It might be worthwhile renaming the moves that are being changed to avoid some of the confusion. After all, they are different moves so why not give them different names ?
4. The 25 'Classic Intermediate Moves'.
I'm not keen on the idea of doing as many as 2 of these 25 so-called 'Classic Intermediate Moves' per 'Intermediate Class'. As a 'leader', my feelings are that I want to learn as many new moves as possible to expand my repertoire. The normal situation is that during the 'Freestyle' sessions people dance each dance with a different partner. The ladies, or followers, therefore are not perhaps aware that a man, or leader, is doing the same dance with every lady that he dances with. While this is fine for the ladies it can become very boring for the man !
I have been going to Ceroc classes for nearly 2 years now and I have felt this for the entire time that I have been dancing.
I would like to see a greater variety of moves being taught rather than being restricted like this.
I feel that on the whole, the effects of these changes to the Ceroc class have the effect of bringing the overall level down for the benefit of the beginners. How do you intend to cater for the more advanced dancers who are not now being catered for so well ?
I'm afraid that this feedback may not be quite what you wanted to hear. However, it reflects my feelings. Also, from talking to fellow Ceroc dancers, I believe that my feelings also represent the feelings of many others who may be less willing to discuss how they feel. I hope that this feedback is of use to you.
What do you think ?
Where do you dance, Andy? Would be interested to know where this stuff is going on... I haven't come across changes to the beginner moves - and I've never heard of "25 classic intermediate moves". Is there a list of these anywhere?Originally posted by Bigger Andy
What do you think ?
Welcome to the forum, BTW.
Chris
Hi Andy - I just wanted to make a couple points, though things are a little busy at the moment, so I'll have to be brief. Anyway, teachers and many others will probably be able to give much better information than me on this subject.
Ceroc Central held a day-long meeting for crew members where the new changes were discussed and we danced through all the new intermediate moves.
We also did the warm-up - my understanding (though I may be wrong) is that it's not a warm-up in the sense you're thinking, as much a lesson in the very very basics of Ceroc. I.e. how to step back properly (ball, then heel, etc.), weight distribution, posture, etc etc. The warm up is also likely to include a minute or so on how to spin.
I think it's probably good if this enables people to get the fundamentals right more quickly. We did it for the first time at Milton Keynes on Monday, and most (though not all) people said they thought it was a good idea. And, at the end of the day, it's only a couple of minutes.
I agree with some of the changes to the beginners' moves, and disagree with other things. I like the new yoyo. I also like the new ladyspin - where, rather than the ball and socket handhold, the leader takes his left (?) hand over and takes hold of the lady's wrist or forearm to spin her. I think it feels nicer that way.
However, I'm rather sorry the wurlitzer and hatchback have been moved from the beginner to intermediate category.
I really don't see that it's a problem having different versions of the same beginner moves when freestyling - the lady should be learning to follow, so it shouldn't matter if a leader is doing the old or the new style of yoyo.
Some of the new intermediate moves are great, in my opinion - tango'esque. Some, of course, are awful - nothing but a tangle of arms and risk of broken neck to extricate yourself. I really don't see the point in moves like this which seem to be more of a puzzle solving exercise than a physical interpretation of the music. But, of course, all people like different things, and variety is what makes it all so good.
Anyway, best get back to work, but just wanted to add my thoughts.
Rachel
Chris,
I dance in Kent. Not too far away from you.
I have been to Ceroc classes at Canterbury, Maidstone and Rochester and I go to the monthly dances at Bromley.
The 25 so-called 'Classic Intermediate Moves' are detailed on the Ceroc Kent website at :-
http://www.cerockent.com
Apparently this all started at the beginning of this year when the 'Ceroc UK' franchise was taken over.
These changes will be Ceroc-wide, Chris, and, as far as I know, all teachers will be recommended to do a 'warm-up'. I think it's just the teachers who have a list of the classic moves, as well as lists of all the new moves. But I'm sure they'd be willing to tell you.Originally posted by ChrisA
Where do you dance, Andy? Would be interested to know where this stuff is going on... I haven't come across changes to the beginner moves - and I've never heard of "25 classic intermediate moves". Is there a list of these anywhere?
Welcome to the forum, BTW.
Chris
Don't worry, you will come across these changes very shortly!
Rachel
I've had a look at the list of "Classics" at cerockent.com - and I agree with Andy that putting two of them into every intermediate class is a dumbing down. It's not the first stage of a cunning plan to make some money out of intermediate-level StepCheck cards, is it?Originally posted by Rachel
These changes will be Ceroc-wide, Chris, and, as far as I know, all teachers will be recommended to do a 'warm-up'. I think it's just the teachers who have a list of the classic moves, as well as lists of all the new moves. But I'm sure they'd be willing to tell you.
Don't worry, you will come across these changes very shortly!
)
If the "warm up" is really "basics", as you say, then I think it's a good idea - and should include a little on resistance as well - though I would predict that that won't happen, because it would be the beginning of the end of the semicircle
And then where would we be? We'd lose the manspin "signal" too, at that rate....
I also agree with you that losing the wurlitzer and hatchback from beginners is daft - the only candidate for that I can think of is the half-windmill IMHO.
I've also been to two "Advanced" classes at two different Ceroc venues, and although they were interesting (and one of them was taught very nicely), neither could have been called advanced.
Oh well, there are obviously interesting things afoot...
Chris
Last edited by ChrisA; 12th-February-2004 at 03:31 PM.
Oh yes - resistance - forgot that - I think that might be included, too. (Agree about the semi circle. Marc, too - he just tells people to 'push away'.)Originally posted by ChrisA
...If the "warm up" is really "basics", as you say, then I think it's a good idea - and should include a little on resistance as well - though I would predict that that won't happen, because it would be the beginning of the end of the semicircle
Yep, you're right - half-windmill is being moved to intermediate as well. Forgot that too!Originally posted by ChrisA
...I also agree with you that losing the wurlitzer and hatchback from beginners is daft - the only candidate for that I can think of is the half-windmill IMHO.
I don't know if it's 'dumming down' to include 2 classic intermediate moves (though I haven't really made up my mind). That still leaves 2 unprescribed moves where the teacher can be really inventive, no? And most people seem to say that more than 2 moves which are brand new to them, is too much to learn.
I would have thought that, if a guy can learn and take away 2 new moves from every class, he's doing really well. I'm impressed! Would you really want more? Does anyone remember 4 new moves?
Rachel
Sorry to quote myself but, actually, I've already decided to completely change my mind on this!Originally posted by Rachel
I don't know if it's 'dumming down' to include 2 classic intermediate moves (though I haven't really made up my mind). That still leaves 2 unprescribed moves where the teacher can be really inventive, no? And most people seem to say that more than 2 moves which are brand new to them, is too much to learn...
Not because I think it would be too much 'dumming down' to include 2 classic moves in every class. But because of the restrictiveness to the routine as a whole. I mean, if a teacher has a great routine in mind, they might not be able to do it if the moves they've chosen don't flow well with any of the 'classic' moves. And they may not be able to play around with the timing so much ... Etc etc etc.
Oh dear, the more I think about this, the more I don't like it.
R.
Thanks for the extra news !
I didn't know that the wurlitzer and hatchback were no longer considered to be beginners moves !
To me the point is that although you are taught a number of moves in a class, you don't necessarily like, or remember, them all. The more new moves you are taught the better as you have a bigger choice and the repertoire grows at a greater rate.
Hi Guys
As far as I am aware (as a Ceroc Franchisee) the 25 odd 'classic moves' that are on the website have indeed been put forward to be used.
The general idea is to assist with the transition from beg to intermediate by providing another level of moves.
I think that the main plan is ONE classic move be taught in each intermediate routine. Thus leaving the other 3 up to the teacher or franchisee should they choose to be involved.
The other three can be designed to keep the advanced dancer or those who feel they have plateaud happy.
I hope this helps.
Not necessarily for more than that night... I'll usually try and dance the whole routine a few times during freestyle, not necessarily in the same order, and if I like any of them enough I might try and remember one, or two at most.Originally posted by Rachel
I would have thought that, if a guy can learn and take away 2 new moves from every class, he's doing really well. I'm impressed! Would you really want more? Does anyone remember 4 new moves?
But I'd rather have a choice of 4, than a choice of 2.
Chris
I'm interested to know how many people feel they are going to Intermediate classes and getting four NEW moves each and every time....
Isn't there usually at least one less complicated (or shall we call it 'classic'?
Also, many of the 'advanced' dancers (how I hate that label) on the forum have been vigorous in their arguments in favour of doing the beginners class, not only from the point of view of encouraging beginners - but also because they feel it improves their dancing. Does this not apply equally to a core of intermediate moves?
Originally posted by ChrisA
...But I'd rather have a choice of 4, than a choice of 2...Good points!Originally posted by Bigger Andy
...more new moves you are taught the better as you have a bigger choice...
Thanks, Dan, for clarifying about the one move.
R.
Well, IMHO this is missing the point completely.Originally posted by Dan Hudson
As far as I am aware (as a Ceroc Franchisee) the 25 odd 'classic moves' that are on the website have indeed been put forward to be used.
The general idea is to assist with the transition from beg to intermediate by providing another level of moves.
The thing that new beginners find most difficult after six classes is not stepping through moves in a class.
Particularly for the guys, it's linking them together in freestyle.
A substantial proportion of beginner ladies, led well, can cope with most of the beginners moves, and indeed many of the easier intermediate ones, within a very short time.
However many of the guys, after only six classes, can cope with the classes easily enough, but are still pretty clueless when trying to link them together.
For some time at Twickenham, the more experienced taxis have been running what we call "Improvers" classes, where we focus on how to freestyle, as well as some basics of lead/follow and spinning.
I've posted elsewhere on the format of my improvers classes, but I'll dig it out if anyone's interested.
Chris
I'm all for keeping things simple - and that's just as a follower!! The thing is, the way we (that is 'we' as in 'Marc', or 'at MK') teach the intermediates, is to make it more of a 'routine' than 4 independent moves which just happen to be joined together.Originally posted by Emma
...Isn't there usually at least one less complicated (or shall we call it 'classic'?
I'm not sure if that makes any sense. Do you know what I mean? But my point is that Marc's intermediate routine will often include a beginner move as one of the 4, or variation on the step across or something - just because they're good linking moves and keep the thing flowing as a whole.
So I can certainly see what Chris and Andy are saying about 'the more choice the better', since you're bound not to like all of the 4 moves taught. But I don't really like to think of the intermediate class as just 'a collection' of moves.
BTW Chris - yes please, I'd love to see your improvers class format, ifyou can find it.
R.
It's rare... and getting rarer. But after hundreds of repetitions, I seem finally to be remembering one or two new ones occasionallyOriginally posted by Emma
I'm interested to know how many people feel they are going to Intermediate classes and getting four NEW moves each and every time....
I would say so, yes.Isn't there usually at least one less complicated (or shall we call it 'classic'?
I certainly wouldn't class myself as an advanced dancer, but I do get quite a bit out of the beginners classes. Not so much in how to dance beginners moves any more, but how to dance them in such a way as to teach them without having to say anything.Also, many of the 'advanced' dancers (how I hate that label) on the forum have been vigorous in their arguments in favour of doing the beginners class, not only from the point of view of encouraging beginners - but also because they feel it improves their dancing. Does this not apply equally to a core of intermediate moves?
Chris
Easier to find than I thought... it was here, 3rd one down.Originally posted by Rachel
BTW Chris - yes please, I'd love to see your improvers class format, ifyou can find it.
Chris
Ooh no, I didn't mean *learn* four new moves, I meant do people feel that each week there are four moves that they have never done before.Originally posted by ChrisA
It's rare... and getting rarer. But after hundreds of repetitions, I seem finally to be remembering one or two new ones occasionally
That's how I interpreted it... not often these days.Originally posted by Emma
Ooh no, I didn't mean *learn* four new moves, I meant do people feel that each week there are four moves that they have never done before.
But whereas at one time I could recognise that I'd done it before, I couldn't necessarily remember how to lead it in freestyle. Now, though, mostly it does seem easier to absorb things in a usable way.
Chris
Feedback
Okie. I don't like the warm-up idea. When I went to salsa classes, I sat out the warm up that they did. As someone said (and I've heard a teacher or two say it already as well), the entire beginners class is a warm-up. It really doesn't start particularly strenuously does it. However, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. What I wouldn't like to see however, is teachers standing on the stage exhorting people to join in. I've seen this happen in one teachers classes already, where he/she stands there, and waits sometimes for a few minutes for people to join in the beginner class, telling them to hurry up. I feel that this puts pressure on people to rush, and also means that the people who are ready, are just stood there waiting. When it's time for the warm-up, just announce it, and get on with it. Let people make up their own minds about whether or not they want to do it, and if they are sitting down, or dawdling, to miss it, fair enough. Don't keep on at them to join in.
The wurlitzer was my favourite beginner move to teach and do. And I liked the hatchback too. I'm not really sure why they have been taken out, as I didn't think that they were that difficult. I've not seen a beginners class where people struggled with them to the point of not being able to complete them by the time the class finished (as distinct from those people being able to do all the other moves within the class that night), and I think that they did provide a variety in difficulty within the beginners class, which maybe helped to prepare people for an intermediate class. After all, if all you've done in beginners classes are all the very easy moves, then stepping up to an intermediate class, might come as a bit of a shock. As for removing the half windmill, fine. I don't think I've ever done the move in freestyle. Remove it altogether as far as I'm concerned.
25 'classic' intermediate moves. Sounds like there's a series of workshops there, as well as flashcards
Steve
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
![$vboptions[bbtitle]](images/master_col.bmp)
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks