Time for competitions to evolve ?

[RobC]

So, with Blackpool, Ceroc & Bristol gone, Scotland just around the corner and Britroc on the horizon, it's time to start looking forward towards next year's competitons. Now is the time for us competitors to make our voices heard and hopefully for the organisers to listen.

Throughout this year there has been much debate - quite heated at times - about the various categories and how people enter. Some people has been voiciforous in their support of the 3 category (Intermediate / Advanced / Open) approach, while others favour the 2 categories that Blackpool use. Each have their pro's and con's, but one thing which most people seem to agree on is that it would seem unfair to prevent people from entering a freestyle category just because they fit someone's definition of a teacher.

So, here's a thought for you to mull over. Is it time to think about a different way to categorise the competitions ? As some of you may know, I come from a ballroom competition background, and over the years I have seen how ballroom competitions have evolved, both in the student circuit and on the open amateur circuit. The student competition format used to use the 2 category approach: beginners (people dancing less than a year) and open (everyone else). Then there was the Basic categories. These were open to all, but the dancers were restricted to just dancing moves from a defined list of basic steps.

On the amateur circuit, they have a multiple category approach: Beginners, Novice, Intermediate, Pre-Champ & Amateur. There is no time limit on you being a beginner, and you can enter multiple categories if you wish. You are only forced out of a category and up to the next level when you win 2 competitions at that level. However, the beginners and novice categories are restricted to basic steps and novice is a 2-dance, Intermediate a 3-dance & Pre-champ a 4-dance competition. The student circuit, after many years of debate have also gone down this multiple category approach as well.

Obviously this 2,3,4-dance approach is not applicable in modern jive, and there are a lot less MJ competitions each year than ballroom comps, so the win 2 and move up might need to be win one and move, however what do people think about restricting the moves people can use in a competition ?

Could there ever be a concensus on what the defined 'Basic' moves were ? Could the various competition organisers be persuaded to all use the same definition ? The Ceroc list of beginners moves could be a starting point. Do LeRoc have a similar list ?

Could a multiple category approach work, where there are no restriction on who enters the categories, but the lower categories are restricted to 'Basic' steps ?

Does anyone else have any radical (or not so radical) ideas on how the copmetition category situation could be improved ?

I open the floor to the debate......

[Lou]

Could there ever be a concensus on what the defined 'Basic' moves were ? Could the various competition organisers be persuaded to all use the same definition ? The Ceroc list of beginners moves could be a starting point. Do LeRoc have a similar list ?

I don't have any particular viewpoint on competitions (as I don't compete!), however, if it's any use to you, the Elmgrove LeRoc website lists the following beginners moves:

Arch (Archie Spin), Basket, Short Butterfly (a variation on the Butterfly), Change Places (Man's Spin), Figure of Eight, First Move, Hatchback, Ladies Spin (Free Spin), Loophole (Variation on Octopus), Neckbreak, Nigel's Move (Springer), Overhead Change (Hallelujah), Push-Pull (Arm-Jive), Secret Move, Closed Sway, Windmill, Wurlitzer, Yo-Yo.

Personally, I'd drop the Short Butterfly & Secret Move, as I don't know anywhere else that teaches them as a beginner move. I'd add a Travelling Return, Side to Side, Comb, and possibly a Shoulder Slide (simplified Shoulder Drop), based on what's taught at other LeRoc classes.

[Andy McGregor]

I don't know what to think. On the one hand, competitions should be about finding the best dancers. On the other hand they should be a rip-roaring fun day out.

I think that MJ is a social dance and competitions should be treated as fun first and serious second.

Speaking from my own point of view, I can not imagine that the things I've done at recent competitions would have been permitted at Ballroom competitions. I'd probably have been banned - but at Weston our double trouble team won the Champion of Champions prize. If I'd minced across the judges table dressed as a lap-dancer at a ballroom competition I'd have been escorted outside by security

But, as everyone knows, we won the day

[serious mode] Some people will take MJ seriously and competitions are the place to do that. But, I think the most serious aspect of a competition is to make sure the competitors know what they're being judged on and how those scores are calculated to find the winners - at the moment the mighty Ceroc in London will not tell anyone how they do it This needs to be fixed before we can think about anything new. [/serious mode]

.. and they need a decent venue. And they need to stop treating their competitors like they have no feelings*.

*This year at the Ceroc London comp they wouldn't announce the people that had been promoted until just before the heat. That meant that you were waiting, in costume, next to the dance floor, only to not hear your number called, how demoralising was that? And, at the last moment, they changed the order of the heats so you were probably in the wrong costume anyway

And I didn't even get my bottle of 'Old Git' wine.

[rant mode]So, 'How should competitions evolve?' There is such a thing as survival of the fittest. Is the Ceroc championships fit to survive while it treats its competitors like the hired help, poor venue, keeping competitors in the dark, changing things at the last minute. Sure it was OK for the spectators but the competitors had paid more and had been served badly IMHO.[/rant mode]

So, I'd like to see more competition between competitions. I'd like to see so many competitions that people running them have to treat competitors like human beings or have no competitors at all. No music so fast you can't dance to it properly (the organisers call this 'challenging'); transparent judging; categories so clearly defined that we don't have to argue among ourselves about which is the right one; a timetable that can be kept to; enough judges that the whole competition isn't delayed if one or two are late; and finally, venues that RobC likes

[Andy McGregor]

Did I say all that?

[DianaS]

Perhaps we can think about having something to include and develop our community more.
In martial art competitions we competed in bands made of groups of belts and had a veterans class for oldies, it was a good idea cas they were far too good for us! Style wise it would be difficult for a sixty year old couple to compete against people in their 30's but its so nice to see how people with 40 years experience travel move and interprete music.
I would also really like to see a youngsters group to encourage our younger people, it needn't be too formal just a little bit of space for them to do something on either on their own or with a partner. When they go to see their parents compete its nice if they can have a sense of inclusion.
Competitions for me are very much about participating and sharing, I don't feel "good enough" but after being around for a while longer I'll come along to a local competion on cheer you all on!

[Gordon J Pownall]

Perhaps we can think about having something to include and develop our community more.
In martial art competitions we competed in bands made of groups of belts and had a veterans class for oldies,

What do they do in Oz...

Don't they have bronze silver and gold depenmding upon experience or something - I was told ages ago but have forgotten.

Perhaps our Antipodean Forumites could enlighten us...???

[Divissima]

Perhaps it is time to dust off an old idea of ChrisA's... and found the UK Modern Jive Dancers' Assiciation (or Federation) - a federation for dancers to have their own voice, separate from the teaching and competition organisations. The MJDA could lobby for things like transparent judging criteria, standardised categories (maybe even an accepted definition of beginner, intermediate and advanced). They could also organise a national league table of dancers with rankings, if people were interested in having one. They could represent the interests of all MJ dancers - maybe by providing information on dance-related matters (maybe a list of dance physio and other therapists), print cool t-shirts, negotiate discounts with dance events, and generally be good eggs...

OK, so I'm half joking, but I'm also half serious. I think dancers could benefit from having a voice, independently of the ceroc, leroc and other organisations. I particularly think that competitive dancers would benefit from having a voice in relation to the competition organisers - but we competitors are in a very small minority when compared with the number of MJ dancers in the UK. What do people think? If enough people think I'm not completely off my rocker, I could look into it further (look at what the BDF and other organisations do for their members).

[Gordon J Pownall]

If enough people think I'm not completely off my rocker, I could look into it further (look at what the BDF and other organisations do for their members).

You are off your rocker - totally and completely in a scary kind of lovely way...

However you speak sense above and that is very different - like the idea but would you be able to get all the organisers of competitions to subscribe or is there a risk that we would end up with another competition that offers a UK National Dance Champions title / status...???

Good idea Bat(wo)man.....

[Divissima]

What do they do in Oz...

Don't they have bronze silver and gold depenmding upon experience or something - I was told ages ago but have forgotten.

Perhaps our Antipodean Forumites could enlighten us...???

I think it depends on the competition - I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if the categorisations differ from one to another. The Ceroc Australia competition last year had categories something like this:

Beginner
Rising Star
Intermediate Championships
Advanced
Open

But there might have been a couple I've missed out. It was particularly notable that where in the UK we have one category - intermediate - they had three to cover the same spectrum of ability and experience. When we entered we had to provide details of our number of years dancing, any competitions entered - which category, how far we progressed, if we placed, etc. There was more form filling but we felt the categories were fair.

[Gordon J Pownall]

I think it depends on the competition - I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if the categorisations differ from one to another. The Ceroc Australia competition last year had categories something like this:

Beginner
Rising Star
Intermediate Championships
Advanced
Open

But there might have been a couple I've missed out. It was particularly notable that where in the UK we have one category - intermediate - they had three to cover the same spectrum of ability and experience. When we entered we had to provide details of our number of years dancing, any competitions entered - which category, how far we progressed, if we placed, etc. There was more form filling but we felt the categories were fair.

I know their classes are also graded as to which class you should / could / can attend as well...???

[Divissima]

You are off your rocker - totally and completely in a scary kind of lovely way...

However you speak sense above and that is very different - like the idea but would you be able to get all the organisers of competitions to subscribe or is there a risk that we would end up with another competition that offers a UK National Dance Champions title / status...???

Good idea Bat(wo)man.....

You misunderstand me, little one. I don't mean to organise another competition, but rather to have some kind of weight to negotiate with the current organisers - and ask for rules to be changed (and standardised). A bit like a dancers' union, if you like. If enough competitors joined, then the MJDA would be able to say 80% of our members (your competitors) are unhappy with the rule about (for example) the definition of an airstep because it is different from the rule in X, Y and Z competitions.

By running UK rankings, Modern Jive Champions of the Milky Way who have won a DWAS competition in Skegness would rank below UK Ceroc Champions so the calibre of the holders of the title would be more clear (where there are so many similar titles)

Don't know, maybe it's crazy....

[Gordon J Pownall]

Don't know, maybe it's crazy....

No - makes loadsa sense - the crazy thing is imagining people will sign up to it - mind you...???

[Divissima]

I know their classes are also graded as to which class you should / could / can attend as well...???

I believe that is right - although as they tend to do more acrobatic moves as standard, there needs to be some way to ensure dancers have enough experience to be safe with the moves. I think I've exceeded the limits of my knowledge - have to call upon the lovely Gary or Robert to explain further....

[Gordon J Pownall]

I believe that is right - although as they tend to do more acrobatic moves as standard, there needs to be some way to ensure dancers have enough experience to be safe with the moves. I think I've exceeded the limits of my knowledge - have to call upon the lovely Gary or Robert to explain further....

Perhaps a MJ passport would be a good idea...Kind of a whaty you've done / vwhere you've been sort of thing.....

[spindr]

I think that to remove "surprises" perhaps each category might specify the bpm range for the music to be used.

Maybe replace the "veterans" competition with a blues one?

SpinDr.

[Gary]

I believe that is right - although as they tend to do more acrobatic moves as standard, there needs to be some way to ensure dancers have enough experience to be safe with the moves. I think I've exceeded the limits of my knowledge - have to call upon the lovely Gary or Robert to explain further....

Beginner class: anyone can do it, no dips.

Intermediate class: beginners are encouraged to check with a teacher before moving up, but it's not enforced. There's almost always a dip or drop in the Intermediate lesson.

Intermediate/Advanced class (once a month at most venues): more challenging moves, higher pace. There's a separate rotation group for people with Intermediate/Advanced cards, which they get by dancing with a teacher who gives you a card or feedback to improve.

Advanced class (less frequently): more challenging again, bigger moves. You must have an Intermediate/Advanced card to participate. At the same time in another room they run an Intermediate class (as well as the Beginner Progression class in yet another room). For this class there are again two rotation groups: one for people with Intermediate/Advanced cards, another for people with Advanced cards (obtained in a similar way).

There's generally not a huge gap between the Intermediate and the Intermediate/Advanced classes (some of the normal Intermediate classes are pretty challenging). The Advanced class is a bigger jump. The biggest jump, though, is still going from Beginner to Intermediate (we're still working on helping with that, tinkering with the Beginner Progression class (which runs in parallel to the Intermediate class)).

The acrobatic moves are taught in workshops, though, not classes (but maybe we've got different ideas about what is "acrobatic").

[Andy McGregor]

I think that to remove "surprises" perhaps each category might specify the bpm range for the music to be used.

Maybe replace the "veterans" competition with a blues one?

SpinDr.

Are you saying 'Boogie Woogie Choo Choo Train' isn't Blues. I thought it needed speeding up when they played it in the Old Gits at the Ceroc champs

No, I'm kidding. I thought it was a bad choice for a competition track and a particularly bad choice for an over 45s age group where competitors are supposed to be showing style rather than endurance.

I think Divissima is right. There's only about 50 of us that compete regularly, we all know each other. Why don't we tell the organisers what we want? All we'd need to do was agree it among ourselves...

..but, just imagine if we could agree. How brilliant would that be? Competitions would improve and we wouldn't get Mr Organiser telling us to stop making a fuss, we're just 'there to entertain the audience' (I was told this, but I'm not saying by whom )

Maybe we could run it like party politics. In party politics we argue/debate in private and vote in private but, when we go to the public we present a united front and support whatever policy the majority voted for - whether we voted that way or not (at least that's the objective).

Maybe Franck could set up a competitors zone on this forum. It could be password protected and we could have polls with closing dates. We could then come up with a 'Competitors Manifesto'. Of course, we'd have to be prepared to use the ultimate sanction of not entering a competition if we really didn't agree with the organiser - solidarity and all that Hopefully we'd be a force for good and never have to use that weapon. But the organiser would know we could always ask our membership to stay away if we really didn't like what he was proposing

[under par]

Perhaps a MJ passport would be a good idea...Kind of a whaty you've done / vwhere you've been sort of thing.....

So long as there wasn't the need for a passport photo....Andy, Rob and Gordy would take months shopping for the outfits and wigs .....never get any dancing done

[under par]

Perhaps it is time to dust off an old idea of ChrisA's... and found the UK Modern Jive Dancers' Assiciation (or Federation) - a federation for dancers to have their own voice, separate from the teaching and competition organisations. The MJDA could lobby for things like transparent judging criteria, standardised categories (maybe even an accepted definition of beginner, intermediate and advanced). They could also organise a national league table of dancers with rankings, if people were interested in having one. They could represent the interests of all MJ dancers - maybe by providing information on dance-related matters (maybe a list of dance physio and other therapists), print cool t-shirts, negotiate discounts with dance events, and generally be good eggs...

OK, so I'm half joking, but I'm also half serious. I think dancers could benefit from having a voice, independently of the ceroc, leroc and other organisations. I particularly think that competitive dancers would benefit from having a voice in relation to the competition organisers - but we competitors are in a very small minority when compared with the number of MJ dancers in the UK. What do people think? If enough people think I'm not completely off my rocker, I could look into it further (look at what the BDF and other organisations do for their members).

Not off your rocker at all, the competitors lobby is a great idea and one could get that going easier than a total dance lobby because the numbers to deal with initially would be smaller.

The competitors at the few competitions I have been to all appear to be having similar complaints , comp categories , music speed and changing facilities etc. of the organisers. But this is always after the event and then everybody trudges on to the next Comp, muttering then again having similar complaints.

Does anybody listen???

All for one and one for all.

It would take someone with drive and devotion to get it off the ground. If there is a ground swell of opinion for it are you volunteering?

[Andy McGregor]

Did I say all that?

I've just received negative rep for the above post the comment was 'no content' - it was unsigned

I thought there might be others who didn't get it so I just thought I'd explain. The 'did I say all that?' referred to the massive post above which was full of content, much of it contentious.

IMHO giving someone negative rep for 'no content' is getting the rep system wrong. I think you should give negative rep for someone saying something rude or agressive or for being a complete prat. About 10% of my rep is negative and it's usually been constructive(ish) and I've welcomed the honesty. I don't usually complain about negative rep, but this one is just nasty - it doesn't add anything to anyone's day.

Rant over.

N.B. Hopefully people will see this post has a purpose. That purpose is to add to the debate on the use of the reputation system. I chose this thread to show this example because it's where I made the post that got the, IMHO, inappropriate negative rep.