Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

[Gus]

ODA Mode On

So ... lets not pussy-foot about this topic anymore. Ceroc is clearly on the road for UK dominance. Already its two main (only?) SE rivals have been assimilated (Rebel Roc and Jive Bug). Hipsters has been demised ( ) and now nothing stands between them painting the rest of the UK Orange. No doubt Mo'jive and Blitz are being approached and 'negotiated with'. Knowing what I do about Blitz this should be interesting but Ceroc has the edge in size, funding, instructors and market muscle power. The end of the 'independents' is now in sight. I predict that this time next year there will only be a small enclave of LeRocers hanging out round Bristol, still insisting on stepping back on the left foot.

The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

ODA Mode Off


So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?

[Lynn]

...and now nothing stands between them painting the rest of the UK Orange...snip

The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

Well if they open in NI that could cause them a few problems - being too Orange that is!

[Northants Girly]

The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

At work we have had all the signs replaced with big orange ones too and what with the Easy Cinema now in Milton Keynes we are wondering if Stellios has anythnig to do with it!

So maybe Ceroc will become Easy Jive?

[Dance Demon]

now in Milton Keynes we are wondering if Stellios has anythnig to do with it!
So maybe Ceroc will become Easy Jive?

[David Bailey]

OK, firstly, anyone else got completely the wrong idea about this thread's topic, or am I the only one with a dirty mind?

So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?

Well, assuming this was aimed at more than Andy, I'll answer.

I don't care. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who gets my lazily-earned dosh, only that I have a good night.

If the proposed Ceroc monopoly would mean a reduction in quality or enjoyment, of course I'd care. But ignoring economic monopoly-related arguments of which I know little, I don't believe it should - the franchise model provides for plenty of competition in the areas I dance in, I believe (almost all of which are Ceroc), so I don't think that'll change.

Alos, I'm still waiting for this fabled controversial thread. I know, How about: Ceroc Domination Is A Really Good Thing?

[Lou]

I don't care. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who gets my lazily-earned dosh, only that I have a good night.

Much as I hate to agree with David,

Alos, I'm still waiting for this fabled controversial thread. I know, How about: Ceroc Domination Is A Really Good Thing?

It depends. What do the Taxis wear?

.

[MartinHarper]

Anyone else got completely the wrong idea about this thread's topic?

Any nominations for "Ceroc teacher most likely to be into UK Domination"?

[drathzel]

Much as I hate to agree with David,

It depends. What do the Taxis wear?

.

it has been suggested low cut tops and high waisted tops for proper viewing of mid rift!

[Dance Demon]

it has been suggested low cut tops and high waisted tops for proper viewing of mid rift!

And that's just for the men...........

[animaltalk]

I don't care. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who gets my lazily-earned dosh, only that I have a good night.

If the proposed Ceroc monopoly would mean a reduction in quality or enjoyment, of course I'd care. But ignoring economic monopoly-related arguments of which I know little, I don't believe it should - the franchise model provides for plenty of competition in the areas I dance in, I believe (almost all of which are Ceroc), so I don't think that'll change.

Alos, I'm still waiting for this fabled controversial thread. I know, How about: Ceroc Domination Is A Really Good Thing?

I do care - because i generally believe it will lead to a demise of quality, -

Constructive Competition - aiming at a slightly different market share is good
Aggressive/Destructive competition - is not

Sadly in nearly everything in the life the Lowest Common Denominator wins Competition => get people in door => High turnover of people, basic music, easier lessons => Less advanced dancers => less classes to keep advanced dancers interested => advanced dancers leave => and so on

Also significantly more expensive than independent venues

I've been to fab Ceroc venues, met fab Ceroc people (Especially Aberdeen ladies) - but my general experience has been disappointing.
Having said that - thank you for ceroc in getting MJ to be as big as it is across the UK

[El Salsero Gringo]

Sadly in nearly everything in the life the Lowest Common Denominator wins Competition => get people in door => High turnover of people, basic music, easier lessons => Less advanced dancers => less classes to keep advanced dancers interested => advanced dancers leave => and so on

There's no logic in this sequence of statements. Getting more people in the door is best done with a *low* turnover of people, because it's much cheaper to retain existing customers than recruit new ones. So there's good commercial sense in running classes that dancers want to return to week after week. All the evidence suggests that this is Ceroc's strongest point. And I don't see any evidence that advanced dancers are really that interested in classes as opposed to having a decent dance floor and music they like.

As for Ceroc being more expensive: I don't see that Ceroc is vastly more expensive than independent venues (some of which are run as hobbies round here, rather than as a business.) If someone's trying to earn a living from running a Ceroc venue you could just as strongly argue that they have a much greater interest in keeping the venue alive by giving customer satisfaction.

Speaking as a customer, it's customer satisfaction that I'm after, obviously. Apart from free water.

[animaltalk]

There's no logic in this sequence of statements. Getting more people in the door is best done with a *low* turnover of people, because t's much cheaper to retain existing customers than recruit new ones.

I agree - but it is not what I see
Also poorly explained - links to point I made about 90% of dancers wanting a social/dating club (Nothing wrong per se) - not to challenge and improve their dancing -

Which Market share would you aim at 90% or 10% -especially if you're being aggressively competed against

And I don't see any evidence that advanced dancers are really that interested in classes as opposed to having a decent dance floor and music they like.

Ahem - I think this partly makes my point - Are there classes for advanced dancers to want to go to?

If someone's trying to earn a living from running a Ceroc venue you could just as strongly argue that they have a much greater interest in keeping the venue alive by giving customer satisfaction.

See earlier point about who to appeal to

You could also argue if someone is running something as a hobby - they are more likely to be passionate about and less concerned about always making money and therefore more likely to put on classes/workshops which are different/unusal/'unsafe'

[David Bailey]

So there's good commercial sense in running classes that dancers want to return to week after week. All the evidence suggests that this is Ceroc's strongest point.

Exactly, senor Turnip. High retention numbers are what drives any customer-facing business forward.

Also poorly explained - links to point I made about 90% of dancers wanting a social/dating club (Nothing wrong per se) - not to challenge and improve their dancing

I have no idea whether these numbers are accurate or not, but I'd suspect not. In my experience most Ceroc customers are there to both dance and socialise in varying degrees, with only a few on either extreme of the spectrum (dancer-only or social-only).

In fact, one could argue that being a good dancer is a big bonus to a, ahem, active social life, so even pure "socialisers" have an incentive to improve their dancing.

Which Market share would you aim at 90% or 10% -especially if you're being aggressively competed against

Errr... can I phone a friend for that one, it's a bit too difficult for me

Seriously, you're predicating an entire line of reasoning on this 90/10 premise, which I don't agree with - I'm happy to be convinced, but I'll need to see at least a little bit of data first.

You could also argue if someone is running something as a hobby - they are more likely to be passionate about and less concerned about always making money and therefore more likely to put on classes/workshops which are different/unusal/'unsafe'

Possibly - but I'll stick with economics; I'm very happy for people to make scads of money from running dance venues, because that in itself will create competition from others who want their mitts on the loot.

And people get bored of running hobbies, but they have to do their jobs...

Workshops / weekenders are maybe slightly different from regular classes - it's plausible that these are better run by independents.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Ahem - I think this partly makes my point - Are there classes for advanced dancers to want to go to?

Well there were, but they tend to close through lack of attendance. Hipsters classes recently, for example. And Gus used to run a more advanced class up north, I think, but closed it because of lack of support. Jango on Monday nights gets a small cadre of very advanced dancers but I don't know how many go for the class and how many simply to dance with other good dancers. Anyway, that venue is too small to be run on a profitable basis by a company like Ceroc.

You could also argue if someone is running something as a hobby - they are more likely to be passionate about and less concerned about always making money and therefore more likely to put on classes/workshops which are different/unusal/'unsafe'

So if they're running it as a hobby - no problem with competition from Ceroc then is there? If it doesn't need to make a profit, it's not under threat!

Most of your points seem to come from the same angle: that you're one of the 10% rather than one of the 90%, but you wish that Ceroc (or any other organisation out to feed it's staff) should cater for you rather than take the most money. You want something 'different/unusual/'unsafe' - but you acknowledge that the market won't support it. And I'd like to fly to the moon for thruppence, but it ain't gonna happen....

[Gadget]

I do care - because i generally believe it will lead to a demise of quality, -

Only if the people (teachers & franchisees) cease caring about the dance. And I don't see that happening.

Sadly in nearly everything in the life the Lowest Common Denominator wins Competition => get people in door => High turnover of people, basic music, easier lessons => Less advanced dancers => less classes to keep advanced dancers interested => advanced dancers leave => and so on

You want a fiscal reason to keep the advanced dancers? They are what inspires everyone below them to keep coming. The higher the top level of the pyramid, the more can be supported below it.

The advantage that Ceroc has is that their "basic" level is basic enough to pull people in through the door, but they have the resources to be able to run workshops and things for the "advanced" dancer that may actually run at a loss: The over-all gain is spread throught every satalite venue that the attendees go back to.

I've been to fab Ceroc venues, met fab Ceroc people (Especially Aberdeen ladies) - but my general experience has been disappointing.

So you can find flaws and criticisim; envisage a downward spiral of degrading and erosion of the dance. That's easy. What would it take to stop this? What would keep the client base they already have for longer, but not scare off beginners?
I only have Franck's administration to compare with, and AFIK there is not really any competition up here. We don't seem to be that bad for the level/quality of dancers - I've not seen any evidence of that spiral of decay.


(PS I agree about the Aberdeen ladies... And I get to dance with them every week )

[Lynn]

I don't care. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who gets my lazily-earned dosh, only that I have a good night.

Its the product I am interested in. And that is teacher, music, venue, other dancers (not nessecarily in that order). I don't dance salsa here because of the venues, mainly the lack of smoke free 'club' venues (ie freestyle). But some of the class venues have a lot of spilt alcohol, chewing gum etc on the floors as well. If someone came up with a salsa 'product' I liked I would go along. Though with MJ I would probably go along whatever the 'label' over the door. And it wouldn't make much difference here as few have heard of Ceroc. Instead of telling people 'modern jive is the generic name for the dance style taught by Ceroc', it would be more like 'Ceroc is a company that teach modern jive'.

[Andy McGregor]

The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?

Firstly, my company colours, to date, have been blue and orange. But after reading this thread they will change to blue and yellow in September. Orange is soooo 1976 ...

My own opinion is that the sequence goes something like this.

1. Ceroc contact the 4 regional organisers with more than 5 successful nights and say "how much for your company?"

2. Ceroc decide if they will pay what is being asked.

So that takes 3 months. Then Ceroc go back to organic growth.

I don't think Ceroc will ever take over every club. Most of them aren't even close to the criteria that Ceroc require from their nights.

And I think it would be a bad thing for MJ if Ceroc ran the whole show. There would be nowhere to go for those disenchanted with Ceroc, Viktor, Nigel Anderson, etc. There would be less innovation and less variation between classes. And variation means consumer choice resulting in more satisfied cusomers. And more satisfied customers means more people to dance with

I'm doing my bit for making sure Ceroc don't take over by running the only independent teacher training courses. Come on Gus, I challenge you to run one in Manchester to keep the map more colourful

[Paul F]

And I think it would be a bad thing for MJ if Ceroc ran the whole show. There would be nowhere to go for those disenchanted with Ceroc, Viktor, Nigel Anderson, etc. There would be less innovation and less variation between classes.
:

Interesting point Andy. Im not disagreeing with it as such but I was wondering if there are examples of what you mean by "less innovation and less variation"?

From what I can tell from the independants that I have visited is that they have simply attempted to duplicate what Ceroc does. A large proportion of the independants teach the same moves, the same way, using the same format ....

I am hard pushed to remember the last time I went to a normal class and thought, hmmm thats different.
When Hipsters was popular it was still doing the same thing. The only difference was that it was an advanced class. Although Nigel, Viktor et al are great teachers there are plenty of others in Ceroc who are just as good with their own unique styles. This will only be increased with Ceroc promoting diversity amongst its teachers which apparently it never used to do.

I seem to remember people saying years ago that Ceroc wanted to clone its teachers but, from what I can see, they now look to let their teachers draw upon other experiences or styles.

I suppose what im really asking is - what will we lose that Ceroc cannot provide?

[animaltalk]

Can an comparison been drawn with Tesco

Tesco - open 24 hours, you know what you're getting. "quality" guarranteed

Local butcher/fishmonger/greengrocer - Can't compete. closes

people go to whatevers convenient 99% of time,

But when you want something different/personal service . . . . .

Poorly explained I know - but its late. I hear what you are all saying.

The 90% 10% ratio, was quoted to me by a London dancer, I applied to our own Thursday Exeter night
200 dancers (15-20 - travel to weekends/advanced dancers/compete/addicted)
45% - we guessed did one night a week social dancing - no underlying agenda
Remaining 45% - the dancing dating agency - every 3rd month please move round one lady . . . . .

Do the sums on your own classes - 90/10 might be extreeme, but again . . .
Ceroc is loosening up on instructors, I guess I am quite defensive because we are very proud of Nelson and Karen and their independent classes, but I danced in Bristol for 5 years and they definitley needed a shake up. . .

[bobgadjet]

So what if Ceroc got UK domination, at least

You know what you would be getting where ever you wnet dancing

You know who to compain to if you didn't like something

You know the quality of the venue would be acceptable, and if not, again you know where to complain

You know the national door fee

etc etc

something to be said to the Tesco thing also, but looking at that comparison, there will still be Asda, Sainsburys, Coop, Morrisons etc etc, so presumably there will still be a small club out there somewhere if you either fell out with, or wanted no more to do with Ceroc.

The choice would still be yours.

If the local ceroc club was no good, you would vote with your feet, and they would then either close the venue to leave a gap for an independant, or improve.................

so what the fuss (as Stevie Wonder would say)