Bristol

[John S]

I believe there was a competition at Bristol this weekend - good/bad/indifferent, results, gossip, slander or whatever?

Is there a website?

[Lou]

... is that there was a bit of upset about who won (and that quite a few people apparently disagreed about the judges' decision).

Unfortunately some friends of mine picked that day to get married, so I couldn't be there myself - so please bear in mind that this is simply hearsay.

[Gus]

LeRoc 2000 held a competition "2002 Modern Jive Championships" last Saturday. After last yearis debacle it appears that many of the main competition dancers did not compete. I've only got feedback from one source so far but it seems like results were as controversial as last year ... and the music nearly as bad...... again this is one persons view.

There had been rumours of some of the main Ceroc teachers enetering but in the end it was mainly southern based LeRocers who took the prizes. Big surprise was that Roger Chin and Lily B, both well known excellenet dancers did not make the final! Having seen them dance I'm surprised, particulalry as many of the known dancers (e.g. Clayton and Jennine, Raymond, Dan S) were not competing.

Personal view but the pnly REAL UK Open competiton that counts is the Chance 2 Dance Blackpool champs, where evryone can enter .... at least they have teachers from all associations (and a number of different countries) competing. Mind you ... ltes see how much fun we have at the Scottish Champs!

Anybody else got any other views?

[Debster]

Hi Everyone

I was at the Bristol Comp (the green couple girl in intermediate!) and I thought it was great. The music was as good as any other comp. I really liked it although there were quite a few tracks I'd never heard before, there was also a bunch of my faves.

The judging was fair I thought. Although I couldn't see how Roger and Lily missed the advanced final. Of course, I made the intermediate final so naturally I'm happy with it... (now the judging at the Ceroc champs in Hammersmith this year on the other hand... but that's another story)

I recognised lots of the competitiors and thought there was a good spread of the usual good crowd there too, even if Clayton and Janine and Ray weren't dancing - it was great to see them there supporting us.

Honestly, my friends and I had so much fun, it was a brilliant day. The venue was ideal for the number of people.

Now thinking about visiting the Scottish champs... I'll actually be in Glasgow tonight... Save a dance for me!!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Debster
(now the judging at the Ceroc champs in Hammersmith this year on the other hand... but that's another story)

Interesting comment re the judging at Ceroc Champs. Heard lots of negative comments re the Advanced section but re the intermediate section feelings were more balanced. One key point was a couple (or maybe two) who were in the intermediates who were patently advanced (OK, not going into the thorny question of how you define).

According to what I heard they were deliberatly marked down as they should never have been in that category. Is that along the lines of what you were refereing to?

Re the rest of the day ... its personal choice. I went last year and had such a shocking time of it I swore I'd never go again, especially when you compare it to the Blackpool events .... the Chance to Dance team have succeded in establishing an event which is another league to the other competitions.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Debster
Honestly, my friends and I had so much fun, it was a brilliant day. The venue was ideal for the number of people.

Now thinking about visiting the Scottish champs... I'll actually be in Glasgow tonight... Save a dance for me!!

Hiya Debs, welcome to the Forum, and it looks like you had a fabulous time in Bristol. I reckon that if you have the right attitude, then you can make the most of pretty much any event!
Now, did I hear you say you were visiting Glasgow tonight? We are honored... I will be teaching tonight (and DJ-ing) so make sure you come and get me for a dance or 3

I am sure we can give you a taste of the (in)famous Scottish hospitality!

Franck.

[DavidB]

(I apologise in advance got the LONG post - I've just spent my entire lunch break writing it, and now I'm starving!)

Just returned from the Leroc Bristol competition. It was an interesting day - I made it to the second round of the Dance With A Stranger, and really enjoyed it. The judging was talked about a lot during and after the competition - but that shouldn't take anything away from the performance of Sarah Johnson & Graham Leclerc in winning both the Advanced and the Showcase divisions.

After the experience of competing, and talking to other competitors and spectators, I had a few thoughts. I know there is a strong feeling in Scotland that their championships should be a 'fun' event, but I hope that the competition itself is still taken seriously. These comments relate to just the competition.

The aim of any competition is to find the best dancers on the day, and to provide entertainment for the spectators. Longer term you want to attract the same competitors and new competitors back next year. Then you get more entertainment for the spectators, and they will keep coming back.

Some competitions have a really good reputation amongst competitors, and they keep coming back. Some have a bad reputation, and end up with few repeat competitors. It doesn't take much to go from one extreme to the other, and it has little to do with the results!

Judging
Please make the judging open. There are no hard and fast rules to deciding who is the best dancer, and everyone knows it is not an easy job for the judges. People are always going to be either surprised or unhappy with the results. In any subjective competition it is always going to go down to the opinion of the judges, and no-one else. Having said all that, it is nice to know what the judges are actually looking for.

In an ideal world, the competitors should know in advance:
- who the judges are, and what their experience is
- what the judges are looking for
- how the marks are tallied
- what happens in the case of a tie

And after the awards have been presented:
- each judges marks should be made available to the competitors and spectators.

(One way I have heard of is each judge giving marks out of 20 for different areas such as style, musical interpretation, timing, technique etc. The marks were totaled so each judge would rank the couples. The overall result was based in individual judges rankings (not the total score) so that an individual judge couldn't significantly affect an individual couple. All this information was available afterwards - it meant each couple could see where they could improve their dancing.)

Hopefully this would stop most of the comments you always get after a competition. You still only have one winner, but everyone else knows why it wasn't them.

Recalls
It should be clear in each heat how many people will be recalled into the next round. It should also be clear how it will be done - eg 8 recalled from 2 heats of 10, or 4 recalled from each heat. If you take the same number from each heat, then you might want to consider randomly selecting the couples to dance in each heat. Then you don't get people worried that they are in the hardest heat. If you are recalling couples from all the heats, you might want to make the judges live easier by having an 'all skate' after all the heats. Get all the competitors on the floor at the same time, and allow the judges a chance to compare dancers from different heats.
After the heat, let people know whether they have been recalled. Announce the numbers (and names if possible) and also post them on a noticeboard. It's not too bad if you don't get through to the next round. It is far worse to have been recalled, and not realise!

Music
Choice of music is always going to be difficult. It is obvious from reading some of the messages on this board that there is only one thing you can guarantee - not everyone will like the music.

From a competitors point of view, you would like the following:
- music that suits the standard of competition. A beginner would not appreciate a song full of highlights, breaks and tempo changes. A more advanced dancer should have something to interpret (assuming that musical interpretation one of the things the judges are looking for).
- consistent music across the heats - don't give one heat a really interesting track, and the next heat a really boring track. Similarly don't give one heat a swing number, and the next heat a pop track. (Its ok to change the style from one round to the next, but keep it consistent between the heats.)
- more than one track to dance to in the heats - not just the final.

(Many competitions in the US will play all the tracks they may use in a competition for freestyle in the hour before the competition. You still might not like the music, but at least you know what you might get.)

You have one advantage on this board - several experienced DJs who could suggest a list of songs for each division.

Getting knocked out in the first round
In any competition you will get people knocked out in the first round. It can be quite dispiriting to sit through the rest of the afternoon watching, when you would really like to be out there competing. I have seen a 'repercharge' at another competition, where everyone who got knocked out in the first round got a chance to dance again. You can either give the winner of this a prize, or put them in the next round, or even the final. It gives everyone the chance to dance in at least two rounds.

Dance With A Stranger
In Bristol you were pre-selected a partner - you had to go looking for someone with the same number as you. Some people managed to find their partner and had up to an hour to practice before. Some people didn't realise what was going on and only had a couple of dances. And others couldn't find their partner, and were randomly given a new one just before the first round. It is supposed to be a 'Dance with a Stranger' - pick a way that 'does what it says on the tin'.

Not making it to the floor in time
One thing they did in Bristol that I liked was trying to let anyone who turned up late for the first round still dance in the last heat. You should also say when competitors are supposed to turn up at the start of the event.
A related subject is letting people know to get ready. There was a timetable, but you might not wear a watch if you have a costume on. Announce at least one heat/freestyle dance in advance what is coming up and who should stand by.
If someone doesn't appear then call them out by name - not number. It is very easy to forget your number.

The finals
For the finals it is nice to call each couple to the floor by name, and let them dance by themselves for 30 seconds or so.
It's also nice to have the finals in the evening - not the afternoon. Some people at Bristol were surprised that all they got to see in the evening were the awards.

Head Judge
Every good competition I've been to has had one thing in common - a head judge. He/she is responsible for the running of the competition (the judges, the music, the competitors, the marks etc) but nothing else. He/she doesn't have to worry about the venue, the bar, the food, the people on the door, lost property, the DJs etc.


Bristol was not the best competition I've been to, but it was by no means the worst. I sincerely hope the Scottish competition is a success, and that everyone who competes, watches or just dances has a good time.

David

PS Debster - you were one of the couples that people commented on when talking about the judging. Everyone I talked to thought you should have been first or second!

[Debster]

oooh - ooh - lots I want to say.... where to start?!

First of all - Thanks Franck et al for a fun night dancing last night! The hospitality up here really is great (and I'm not just saying that because they told me too!)

Thanks DavidB for listing all that stuff that many of us have been saying about competitions for a while. (Thanks also for passing on the compliment about my dancing in Bristol!)

And Gus - I have a small issue with the marking people down for being in intermediate who are obviously advanced... I heard via gossip, not any authoritative path, that I was one of those couples at Hammersmith dropped out of the intermediate competition for "obviously" being advanced. If that really was the case - the judges should have told us. As far as I am concerned, I am not getting placed in intermediate, so I am no where near good enough to be in advanced... OK maybe I exaggerate a little... if I had an advanced partner I would be happy to do advanced, but that's a long story, and I must go.

Bottom line - if anyone gets disqualified in a competition they should be told they have been and why - so we don't keep making the same mistake!!

Keep dancing!

[Will]

Nice post DavidB, food for thought.

Debster, I saw you at Bristol and think you should have won myself. If you went wrong anywhere, it was picking a dance partner that is going to constantly get mobbed by hoards of women, alienating the jelous male judges who weren't too happy to see STEVIE WONG steal there limelight!

In the advance section, I placed Greg LeClerc 2nd and the guy in the bandana (Mark I think) with the girl in the silver suit 1st. But it's all subjective I know.

[Bristol Chick]

I was at the Bristol competition last Saturday as a spectator, IMO the judging was completely impartial and it was refreshing to see some new faces justifiably earning their positions as some of the top dancers.

Some of the styles adopted were new, innovative and great to watch.


The venue was great and the music was spot on, all in all a superb day, roll on next year.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
.. a couple (or maybe two) who were in the intermediates who were patently advanced (OK, not going into the thorny question of how you define). According to what I heard they were deliberately marked down as they should never have been in that category.

To go into the thorny subject of how you define... If in the unanimous opinion of the judges after the first round there is a couple who should be in a higher division, then the couple should be moved into the first round of the higher division. Otherwise they should be judged to the same standard as everyone else in the division - they should not be 'disqualified', or marked down in the final.

There aren't enough Modern Jive competition for people to watch or enter so that everyone can quickly find their natural level. By the sound of it, it's taken Debster the best part of a year to find out (Debster - you should enter the Advanced!)

Originally posted by Bristol Chick
.. IMO the judging was completely impartial ... new faces ... styles were new, innovative and great to watch

It's difficult to write anything about this without sounding like I'm whinging. Personally I have no complaint with the way I was judged - if anything I thought I was lucky to make it past the first round. (Apologies to my partner - I didn't do her justice!)

I don't take competing seriously anymore. I did for years, and learnt a lot, but now I just want to enjoy myself. But I feel sorry for anyone that does want to take competitions seriously - they have no idea what the judges are looking for. I'm not saying there should be a 'standard' for Jive like there is in Ballroom. I liked the fact that in the finals there were so many different styles, but the judges still have to compare the dancers across the styles.

One example is the balance between doing varied and complex moves, or doing a lot of musical interpretation. It is very difficult to do both, and if Bristol is typical, most people emphasize one or the other. The couples that emphasized moves seemed to do better, but was that something the judges wanted to happen, or was it just a coincidence?

Just let the couples know what the judges are looking for, and what they actually think. It's supposed to be 'fun' for competitors as well!

Originally posted by Bristol Chick
The venue was great and the music was spot on.

The venue was easily big enough for the competition, and thankfully it was air-conditioned. It was too packed for me in the evening. (It's nice to see that the Scottish Competition has limited numbers to make sure there is enough room.) The bar was cheap - I'm assuming that will be a feature Scotland will have in common as well...

The only thing you can guarantee with music is that not everyone will like it.

David

[Debster]

Originally posted by DavidB
To go into the thorny subject of how you define... If in the unanimous opinion of the judges after the first round there is a couple who should be in a higher division, then the couple should be moved into the first round of the higher division.

Not a bad idea. But surely this too is too hard to standardise. Just because they look like they might win they get boosted up so they can't win...

Originally posted by DavidB
Debster - you should enter the Advanced!

Hmmm... so I can not win in that category too. Cool! Really, I'm flattered. And seriously considering it.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I am not complaining about the Bristol judging either.

Originally posted by DavidB
... - they have no idea what the judges are looking for. ....
....Just let the couples know what the judges are looking for, and what they actually think. ...

Yeah, I try not to be competitive, but that is what a competition is for. And it is fun. But I would like to know what I've got to do to 'get it right'. I think I should ask a few judges personally, ...when I pick up the courage that is.

Competing can get so obsessive... but I promise not to get nasty!

[Heather]

Sorry I haven't a clue either, but I do agree that there should be some type of list with standard criteria which could be ticked off. Then of course, having fulfilled all that's on the list, I guess it's a matter of the judges personal preference!!!!!
When you enter(reputable) Music Festivals, an adjudicator has to fill in a written crit form, detailing his comments and also more importantly qualifying these statements with pointers for further improvement. I suppose this might prove rather difficult and time consuming in a dancing competition especially as there are usually several couples dancing at once, as opposed to when singing you are performing solo and they have plenty of time to listen in great detail ( whether they want to or not )

I don't know what the judging format of the Scottish competition is to be or even who will be doing the judging, but I am assured by Scot it promises to be FUN. After all its not the winning - it's the taking part that should really count, and as Scot is quick to point out, it's for Charity.
There are very few people up here of my aquaintance, who regularly go dancing with Huge Egos to be massaged, we like to have fun, do our best and don't take ourselves too seriously.


Heather

[DQN]

Can i just say that i think debster is a very pretty dancer! ( think you should have been placed on saturday ). People have commented on 1st and 2nd in the advanced, think it was well deserved but what about 3rd! who should have been placed and where?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Debster


Hmmm... so I can not win in that category too. Cool! Really, I'm flattered. And seriously considering it.

Thought about your comments re which level to compete at and in the course of my ramblings found the rules and regs from Ceroc Australia ... and very good rules they are [Scott, you may want to check them out!]

Anyway, the following rules caught my eye;

Intermediate Championship
This section is for those higher level Intermediate dancers with more than two (2) years dancing experience and who have not come 1st, 2nd or 3rd in any Intermediate or above national Ceroc dance competition prior to January of the current year


Good point well made. Then I seem to remember that you came 2nd in Chance to Dance 2002 Intermediates. I know that the Aussie rules aren't in place over hear but doesn't the spirit of such a rule suggest that you should compete at Advanced anyway?

PS If I've got the wrong Deborah from Amante Ballo plesae accept my apologies.

[Divissima]

I was at the Bristol comp last weekend too (half of the blue and white couple in intermediates). Debster is spot on about the music and venue - it was a great day. We had such fun!!

On the thornier issue of judging - very difficult. I think what Heather mentioned above would be interesting - with the judges posting their comments on each couple (anonymously maybe). The whole process would then be open to scrutiny - and probably also for criticism. But openness would always sort out the question of what the judges were looking for on the day. It might not be practicable for all judges to write at length on each couple in every round - but in competitions where the results are close (and likely to be controversial) comments on the finalists or semi finalists could only improve how people react.

Until we standardise our marking system, we can never hope to be an Olympic sport!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Divissima
Until we standardise our marking system, we can never hope to be an Olympic sport!

Excuse me but who the h*ll wants Ceroc to be an Olympic sport???

Cerco is a dance ... a fun dance. If you want to see what happens when you try to make it a sport just watch Strictly Ballroom or remeber the mockery that Synchronised Swimming was subject to. Dance is, and alwys be, an art form in which individuals express themselves and their own style. Aside from technical complexity you can only judge a dance on whether you as an individual find it 'good'.

There has always been controvesy about judging. The only time I would possibly critisise judging is when there is a gap between what has been stated as a marking criteria and the end result .... the point in question is that most competitions make the point that "scoring will be made on the interpretation of the music rather than the complexity of the moves" ... my personal observation that this has rarely been the case and a few people have mentioned this issue also featured at Bristol.

Sooooo ... I echo previous comments that say you need judges who are recognised as being good MODERN JIVE dancers (not Lindy, Slasa or anything else) and the scoring criteria needs to be clearly understood by all parties. If that is in place then its all down to personal preferences.

Fair comment?

[diva]

Wow! Dance championsihips 2002 in Bristol on August 17th was a fab day.

Clearly a lot of work had gone into making the event just right. Well done to the organisers.
The standard of dancing was the highest I have seen this year,from (dance with a stranger) to the advanced catagories and I have been to the Blackpool (chance to dance), the London (ceroc) and the Bristol Leroc championships, all of which had a very high quality variation and entertainment value.
The atmosphere was fun, relaxing and the whole event was proffesionally staged.
The venue was abosultely right for the numbers that attended. The air conditioning worked wonderfully, the muic was faboulus throughout the competiton, an all my favourite tracks were played. There was a mixture of swing, jive,pop and blues.
This has been the best dance event of the year.

Well done Bristol.

I can hardly wait until the next one!

[Harry]

hi all,
Re: Dance championships 2002.
What a fantastic day had by myself and many others i,ve spoken to.It was a great to see so many faces from all over the country taking part,some well known couples,as well as some knew faces.
It ,s been quite interesting reading all the different comments about the day.I Pesonally feel this event was superbly run.
The standard was as high as i,ve seen at Blackpool and Hammersmith. The judges made there dicisions to which there will always be some-one who disagrees.
reading about people not making finals e.g. roger chin etc, amazes me to think certain people are expected to make finals win or not win.At the end of the day no-one knows what the judges are looking for.It was great to see different people out there maybe doing something a bit diffferent!!
There are always new people coming onto the dance scene that maybe are pretty good too!
With regards to the day itself,the venue was great ,the music was excellent,and i think this event was undoubtedly a hit. Well done to all those who made this such a great day, look forward to next year!

[Gus]

Originally posted by diva
Wow! Dance championsihips 2002 in Bristol on August 17th was a fab day. The standard of dancing was the highest I have seen this year,from (dance with a stranger) to the advanced catagories and I have been to the Blackpool (chance to dance), the Londo