The nature of competition

[Gus]

The forum is here for debate and to raise issues and canvass opinion ...so I would like the opinion of the organisers of the event..

Johnah, what are your views on flyering competing events ... going along to events by competing organisations and then sneaking off to festoon the customers cars with flyers .... do you think its acceptable? Would this type of thing be done at a Ceroc event? Just curious but your view would be deeply appreciated.

[Alfie]

With reference to Ceroc people putting out leaflets on peoples vehicles at a rival event.
I have seen this done at a couple of events. One of which was a charity event. The only problem this caused was the ammount of wet sticky flyers that had to be collected from trees, peoples gardens etc.
No big deal, dog eat dog business this dancing lark.
Does this sort of action make you feel threatened as to the future of your own events?
Would it have made a diference if the gent in question had asked to advertise his event at the Venue.
That way the Blitz event later in the year could be advertised by him. I wouln't see it as rivalry just good freindly business practice betwwen two independent organisations taking dancing to the masses.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Gus
The forum is here for debate and to raise issues and canvass opinion ...so I would like the opinion of the organisers of the event..

Johnah, what are your views on flyering competing events ... going along to events by competing organisations and then sneaking off to festoon the customers cars with flyers .... do you think its acceptable? Would this type of thing be done at a Ceroc event? Just curious but your view would be deeply appreciated.

I dont agree with this, I organised a dance in Brighton and was advised to flyer the carpark of another organisers event.
I did not do this, the event was poorly attended and the local dancers asked why I had not put flyers on cars, cos eeryone else does.

I discussed this with the other organiser afterwards and he informed I would have been banned from is events if I had done it
peter

[Gus]

Originally posted by Alfie

Does this sort of action make you feel threatened as to the future of your own events?
Would it have made a diference if the gent in question had asked to advertise his event at the Venue.

Like thats going to happen. Sorry Alfie but if these guys wanted to co-operate thay wouldnt resort to low life actions. The unwritten rule for Promoters is you dont flyer other promoters events without permission. With all due respeck, its NOT down to the dancers .... this is ettiquette for Organisers. The really annoying thing is that if someone had had the manners to ask, I'd have probably promoted the event at my next freestyle. As its is, if I see any of that bunch trying the same at my events I'll let my security lads help them through the door ... without openning it first!:reallymad:

There is no excuse for such behaviour, it shows a complete disregard for ethics and a lack of integrity. If they want to continue ... I'm sure that Ceroc Nantwich would be only too glad to have the JiveAddiction bunch flyering their carpark

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
going along to events by competing organisations and then sneaking off to festoon the customers cars with flyers ....

This is actually a criminal act. If anyone were to collect the evidence (a few flyers) and contact the Environment Agency the leaflet distributor would be prosecuted and end up with a hefty fine plus costs and a criminal record. I have been told by 2 employees of the Environment Agency that they always prosecute if they have enough evidence to secure a conviction.

I also know this from personal experience as I used a company that advertised they were a licenced waste carrier. When it turned out they weren't I was still prosecuted even though the advertiser had lied - I was prosecuted for 'using an unlicenced waste carrier' and I was fined £423

My advice is to not take the risk and not risk prosecution for putting flyers on cars. You'd be better off giving the leaflets to people on their way out - if you have to do anything like that at all rather than offering an exchange with the other organiser.

[Will]

I'm not an organiser and never have been, but I reckon I'd probably feel like Gus does about it if someone started flyering my venues. But thats just me.....

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This is actually a criminal act. If anyone were to collect the evidence (a few flyers) and contact the Environment Agency the leaflet distributor would be prosecuted and end up with a hefty fine plus costs and a criminal record. I have been told by 2 employees of the Environment Agency that they always prosecute if they have enough evidence to secure a conviction.

I doubt flyers alone would constitute enough enough evidence. Witness reports may not do it either. If observed at all it is likely to be from a distance in the dark, and the testimony may be suspected of bias. Useful info though. It may be enough to warn the offender that it is an offence.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I doubt flyers alone would constitute enough enough evidence. Witness reports may not do it either. If observed at all it is likely to be from a distance in the dark, and the testimony may be suspected of bias. Useful info though. It may be enough to warn the offender that it is an offence.

Just finding a few flyers under wipers is enough evidence. One of our local operators has already been successful in a similar prosecution. Don't risk it guys. I was prosecuted based on two bits of my junk mail turning up in a pile of rubbish that wasn't even mine

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gus
Johnah, what are your views on flyering competing events ... Would this type of thing be done at a Ceroc event? Just curious but your view would be deeply appreciated.

Johnah .... HUGE APOLOGY .... I'm afraid the phrase above could have been misinterpreted ..... I must confess that I was mis-informed ..... Turns out that in addition to (allegedly) illegal flyering at Stockport, Sheffield and Coventry (all Blitz) you guys ALSO (allegedly) hit a Ceroc venue.

Now I wonder ... how will Ceroc HQ respond? Anyone place the bets on a banning order

Franck/Scot ... would you care to comment on what would happen if Blitz came to your venues and started flyering cars for a competing event?

[Chris]

I've been to Blitz events that I thoroughly enjoyed. I was made exceedingly welcome. That makes me well disposed towards them. I also met the lovely Sarah there (a major bonus!), got to know John Sweeney a bit better, met up with close friends from the North. I asked to put flyers out for an event north of the border. They not only put them out on the front desk but helped to promote them to the people there that night.

Not relevant you might think, but there's always another side - don't judge too harshly when we don't know all the facts. Flyering windscreens outside a competitor's venue IMHO tends to harm the perpetrator more than the venue. Bad move - live and learn.

And if they don't see these comments the thread simply become one more marketing tool for their 'opposition.'

[johnah]

I think the most important facts to have emerged from this thread is that dancers WANT to be informed about events whilst some dominant organisations simply do not want dancers to be informed. Receipt of leaftlets by dancers IS ACCEPTABLE, whilst, it would appear, the distribution of them by some organisers is not welcome. Two very distinct views.

I agree with James Geary when he says “it is simply freedom of information, people [eg dancers] have a right to be informed and will then make up their own minds”.

Now, there is in reality, no direct comparison between how this thread began and how one contributor deemed to slant it towards me personally [even threatening violence] and Jive Addiction’s event at Southport in May.

Contrary to what is being asserted, Jive Addiction IS NOT in direct competition with either Blitz, Ceroc or any other MJ/dance organisation. We do not operate weekly classes, nor do we seek to dissuade dancers from attending anyone’s events. In fact, as dancers ourselves, we actively encourage others to frequent their venues and advertise them to our mailing list.

The Southport Jive Extravadanca is the very FIRST weekender of it’s type in the North, and is in direct response to dancers wishes. We are simply informing the dancing family that it is taking place, the line-up of Teachers etc and thereby enabling them to make an informed decision – it is simply their choice!

Originally posted by Gus
its NOT down to the dancers [/b]

Most, if not all, of the smaller independent MJ event organisers recognise that Southport is not a “threat” [perceived or otherwise] to their events/venues and, indeed, believe as we do that it will help to enthuse and stimulate the growth of MJ/dance in the North. These independents are willingly helping to promote Southport and, in turn, we shall be reciprocating the gesture at our event.

Sadly, one of the dominant organisers in the North is clearly of the view that information about Southport should be suppressed, thereby denying dancers freedom of information and choice. Yes, a PUBLIC car park at Stockport was leafleted with information about Southport, only for us to discover that all had subsequently been removed by, guess who? As James Geary has posted: “The actions of attempting to restrict information could be compared to the actions of a dictator”.

Perhaps some people forget, we live in a democracy! Jive Addiction has simply matched its event to the wishes of the dancing community, and we shall continue to provide information to dancers about the Southport Jive Extravadanca. We endeavour to disseminate this information in a cordial and legal manner.

Sincere thanks to all those dancers who are passing on leaflets to all their friends and/or patrons. If any other dancers would like to pass leaflets on also, please contact us at www.jiveaddiction.com

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by johnah


The Southport Jive Extravadanca is the very FIRST weekender of it’s type in the North, and is in direct response to dancers wishes. We are simply informing the dancing family that it is taking place, the line-up of Teachers etc and thereby enabling them to make an informed decision – it is simply their choice!

Just my personal view as a dancer who goes purely to enjoy a dance, I have to say that I think it would be a good idea if different organisers promoted, even in a small way, other's events.

I go to Blitz, Ceroc and independant classes and events and enjoy each one enormously, not because of who is running it, but because of the dancers who are there. Finding out about them though, is a different kettle of fish. I rely on flyers, word of mouth, this Forum etc., otherwise I'd be stuck at home in front of the box, instead of out dancing and having a whale of a time!

I went to Stockport on Saturday and had a brilliant night (thanks Gus), I will be going up to Aberdeen for Beach Ballroom (thanks to Franck and the Scottish contingent), hopefully to Camber in April (thanks to other Forumites for the recommendation), definitely Southport in May (thanks to Johnah and friends) and when Gus has his event (did I hear November mentioned?) I will go to that too. I know I'll have a great time at each of them.

I know it must be annoying when others "picket" your venue, but if everyone agreed to promote other main events (not talking classes here) then we can all find out about them and go along, that way more people would turn up at each event (given the nature of MJ dancers) not less and I don't believe one event several months or even weeks away from another would detract from the other.

Please don't have a go at me, I'm just giving my honest opinion. I love all the venues and have yet to meet someone, be they organiser, teacher, or dancer, who I took a dislike to. Everyone seems very friendly. Lets keep it that way, eh?

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Bardsey
I will be going up to Aberdeen for Beach Ballroom (thanks to Franck and the Scottish contingent), hopefully to Camber in April (thanks to other Forumites for the recommendation), definitely Southport in May (thanks to Johnah and friends) and when Gus has his event (did I hear November mentioned?) I will go to that too.

Hang on a minute; rumour has it you may be attending Twyford in March, murder permitting

and of course if Boomer agrees to don a skirt

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Bardsey
Just my personal view as a dancer who goes purely to enjoy a dance,

-snip loads of sensible stuff-

Well said Bardster.

Us dancers see it that way but in my experience that's not the way some organisers view it. Some of them seem to think that if they don't tell us about their competitors we'll never find out and give our money just to them.

Speaking personally, if I hadn't found out about other classes I wouldn't be dancing now. The great differences between what you learn at different classes and the many and varied people I meet are what's kept me interested for almost 7 years. Of the people that started at around the same time as me not one still goes to that original venue all of the time - but we do go sometimes. There's not one person left of those people who never tried anywhere else.

The message is clear, the world of dance will be increased by people going to different venues. Why can't organisers compete on quality of product rather than freedom of information?

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Why can't organisers compete on quality of product rather than freedom of information?

Oh but some of us do Andy...some of us do...

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Oh but some of us do Andy...some of us do...

Like you DD, we do too! However, some organisers make it their mission in life to destroy any competition, not seeing the 'big picture'. I say there's enough room for us all, if we all cooperate a little more

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Chicky
Like you DD, we do too! However, some organisers make it their mission in life to destroy any competition, not seeing the 'big picture'. I say there's enough room for us all, if we all cooperate a little more

Yep...couldn't agree with you more Chicky

[Gus]

Originally posted by Chicky
Like you DD, we do too! However, some organisers make it their mission in life to destroy any competition, not seeing the 'big picture'. I say there's enough room for us all, if we all cooperate a little more

RIGHT ... time to out the other side ... and none of this ODA cr*p, this is Gus writting .... and I'm mighty pi**ed off.

This has NOTHING to do with trying to prevent competition. anyone who knows me knows that I've alwyas seen true competition as positive. When I was Ceroc I promoted Blitz events on a reciprocal basis. Blitz now promotes a vast range of events .. includng my independant Gorgeous Gus events ... so lets get that misconception out of the way! If someone asks me I have no problems in telling them I've danced at Ceroc Hyde ... Paul and Chris have played with a straight bat and deserve their success.

What I have a real problem with is people coming in an creaming off from the hard work done by others. To say that Southport will stimulate dance is the most arrogant cr*p I've heard. We've managed to develop dancers very well already, thank you very much without some condescending no-mark from Notts coming here to help us out. what the hell do they think they know about the Northern dance scene when they dont even come here?

There are at least 5 dance organisation here who run a whole range of workshops including 'A' list instructors ( ). I take it fairly personaly when we're accused of not giving our dancers what they want.

Bottom line, not only have our unethical friends insulted most of the Northern teachers and DJs by ignoring them, not only have they cur across every club they could by UNETHICALLY flyering their venue ... they then try to make out that their money grabbing scheme is a SERVICE TO THE NORTH. :reallymad:

PLEASE GET REAL If they had acted honourably they would have been fully supported ... as there is not a shred of decency among them .... well, I will express my views to them by PM.

PHEW ... time to chill

[bigdjiver]

I have had experience of being in an ultra-competitive business. I, and all my competitors, lost money. Competition did not improve the product, it wiped out the all of the suppliers of it.

The ultimate form of competition is war. This is why we have laws, to attempt to keep peoples behaviour within reason.

Competition does not necessarily improve products. Look down at the keyboard. See the common letters E R T A S all carefully positioned under the weaker fingers of the left hand. This layout was deliberately designed to slow down the typist so that the typewriter keys did not jam so often. Speed to market is a vital consideration, and this "fix" allowed one manufacturer to get there first and dominate the market.

Many competitors down the ages brought out demonstrably more efficient layouts, but QWERTY still rules.

The comments about banning leaflets and promoting rival events merely slowing down awareness are true, but slowing down the competition can make all the difference. "Get there fastest with the mostest" was one Generals adage.

One Ceroc venue I know allowed a Cancer charity to give out leaflets for a charity jive event. The event was used to promote the launch of a competiting event. Lesson learned.

Leaflet wars are naff. Mature businesses do not do it. Perhaps someone will persuade an existing magazine / newspaper to publish a monthly MJ supplement with free event listings, on the way to having an MJ magazine. I believe it needs a circulation of 60,000 to get onto the High St newsagents shelves, we could manage that, couldn't we?

[Will]

I'd really rather see organisers busking and giving flyers out to people off the streets, or dishing out flyers within each others venues after a reciprical agreement has been reached. That would demonstrate to me a passion for dance and a respectful business ethic.

Flyering other MJ venues car parks is pretty low, not to mention lazy, in my opinion, and I do hope that people take these flyers and make a point in NOT giving them their business.

I totally sympathise with you Gus (and applaud you for posting as Gus rather than ODA on this!). But hec it could be worse, you could be fighting the MJ organiser wars in BrightonNAM