Ceroc 2002 Championships

[John S]

Originally posted by Gus

Had chance to view some video of the Ceroc 2002 championships and discuss it with a few learned associates ...

Was this a private video, or is the "official" one now available then?

It seems to have been taking an interminably long time, and the Ceroc UK website still says that work is continuing on the 2002 video. Confused.

[Gus]

Originally posted by John S


Was this a private video, or is the "official" one now available then?

Private video I'm afraid. Like yourself I'm very keen to see the full video ... sounds like there were some excellent perofrmances and a few contraversial incidents (DON'T MENTION THE DOUBLE TROUBLE FINAL FIASCO!!)

It seems to be common practice for all these videos to take 10 times longer than you would expect. At least the quality of these vids is gradualy getting better.

Suggestion, you might want to arrange a viewing for the clubs (if Ceroc HQ give permission). We've just done that with the Chance to Dance vid (2002 Open UK Champs) and had a great time .... even getting chance to cheer on Bill and the Girls in their double trouble event.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
even getting chance to cheer on Frank and the Grils in their double trouble event.

One man dancing with two barbeques... now that would be some hot dancing

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
One man dancing with two barbeques... now that would be some hot dancing

Well the girls were really hot stuff...

OK Dave ... after your recent quietness I would have expected a more erudite response to my attempts at controvesy than picking holes in my spelling (not exactly a hard target!)... only just noticed I'd also morphed Bill into Franck aswell ......

So ... got anything usefull to say Oh Knowledgeable one on the subject of vids or instructors winning their own competitions ?????

PS .... are you up for the Champs?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
So ... got anything usefull to say Oh Knowledgeable one

That's 'O Knowledgeable One' with a capital O ('Sir' or 'He Who Dances Like Fred Astaire' are also acceptable. However 'He Who Dances Like Fred Flintstone' might be more accurate.) And I've always got something to say, but it's rarely useful.

...on the subject of .. instructors winning their own competitions ?????

It doesn't matter how independent the judges are, if the local teacher wins, then people will complain about bias. But I want to see the best dancers taking part. If these include the teachers, then I would still want them to enter. I'd rather there be discussions about it afterwards, than for them to be barred from entering in the first place.

I understand why organisers don't allow teachers to enter. There is too big a gap in standard between the intermediate winners and the top teachers, and it would put people off entering the advanced division. But by not allowing teachers to take part, you are missing out on some of the best dancing around.

I think the jive competition scene in the UK is big enough now for a division beyond the advanced that is open to anyone - maybe not at every competition, but certainly at Blackpool and the Ceroc champs. (I don't know what you would call it - Champions / Professional / Invitational ????) You would then have Beginners, Intermediate, Advanced and ???? - it would allow a division for everyone with a reasonable chance of doing well.

Picking the judges is difficult. In an ideal world, you would have a selection of qualified judges from different organisation, and some independent teachers as well. I can't quite see that happening.

An organisation (like Ceroc) would quite reasonably want to only include their own qualified teachers, especially if their qualifications are a major part of their marketing. However this could easily be perceived to be biased if their own teachers take part.

The organiser might know several people he would like to be judges, but might prefer them to compete instead.

Several competitions have had judges who teach other dance styles (eg Ballroom, Salsa or Lindy) to deflect any appearance of bias. Unfortunately you then wonder how much they actually know about modern jive.

It is also common to have couples judging. It makes some things easier (such as travelling and possibly accomodation) but it can also lead to bias - you now have 2 people who like a particular style, instead of one.

I don't have any answers. The best bet is probably to get as many judges as you can afford, and publish the marks afterwards. At least then the organiser doesn't get accused of bias.

PS .... are you up for the Champs?

Not sure at the moment. It's a long way to go for a freestyle, and we are thinking that the Glasgow party might be easier.

David

[Debster]

Several competitions have had judges who teach other dance styles (eg Ballroom, Salsa or Lindy) to deflect any appearance of bias. Unfortunately you then wonder how much they actually know about modern jive.

OK, you want controversial....

What is there to know about modern jive that a real dancer couldn't plainly see?


I think teachers from most other styles are well equipped to judge a modern jive competition.
Let's not take ourslves too seriously here.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Debster


I think teachers from most other styles are well equipped to judge a modern jive competition.
Let's not take ourslves too seriously here.

Sorry Debster but based on the evidence of the few times non-Jive judges have been let loose, I think you may not be entirely correct.

Why should a modern jiver not be competent to judge Ballroom but a Ballroom judge be competent to judge Modern Jive ..... have you ever seen the Ballroom version of Modern Jive .... personaly I thought it was of similar comic proportions to the Marx Brothers ... its a very different beast .. and one which I'm obviously ill placed to judge. So .... would be reticent to compete in a competition with judges who didn't know the Modern Jive dance style.

Fair comment?

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Debster


OK, you want controversial....

I think teachers from most other styles are well equipped to judge a modern jive competition.
Let's not take ourslves too seriously here.

Thats very true Debs, but i have to say that in any form of dance, some people are under the impression that just because you are intitled to call your self a "dance teacher" that you are obviously a great dancer and highly knowledgable in your field. UInfortunately i have seen many "dance teachers" who are not fit to judge a wellie throwing competition, let alone a dance competition. I for one would rather have David B (A very experienced dancer, with an abyss of knowledge in a vast range of dance types/styles) judging me, than a "dance teacher" (who has possibly been dancing for a while, but has been qualified for 2 months and hasn't even seen most of the dance moves,let alone know if the couple performed it correctly!)

i bet there's a lot of advanced dancers out there who could tell the "teachers" a thing or two.

filthycute MAd. x x

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB

There is too big a gap in standard between the intermediate winners and the top teachers, and it would put people off entering the advanced division. But by not allowing teachers to take part, you are missing out on some of the best dancing around.

I think the jive competition scene in the UK is big enough now for a division beyond the advanced that is open to anyone
David

Been thinking about your last comment a lot. The UK jive scene is growing but from my limited knowledge (and I'm happy to be corrected on this) I think that the number of advanced competitors is small. From what I've seen over the last two years I think the following is a failry comprehensive list of the top competitors;

London: Dan Slape, Ray, Heather & partner, Roger C

Aussies: Tubsy & Jeanine, James & Hayley

LeRoc: Graham & Ann, Mark & partner, Sherif & Mandy

North: Pete & Kay, Gus & Helen, Keith, George Moss

Scotland: Bill & Fran

Thats not a lot of dancers. Its also intersting that from some of the areas where I know there are good dancerts, e.g. Ceroc Central and West of London ... there are no dancers competing at the top level........

BUT I would say that none of the above are in the 'Super-Advanced' category. The best dancers (now) don't compete, e.g. Viktor & LKydia, Dan Baines, Sue Freeman, Nigel & Nina, Amir etc.

So ... I would say, that given the above dancers, they are all well within reach of advancing intermediates ... possibly with only the Aussies having a real edge on the rest.

Any other views?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Debster
What is there to know about modern jive that a real dancer couldn't plainly see? I think teachers from most other styles are well equipped to judge a modern jive competition.

I have no doubt that judges and teachers in other forms of dancing know as much (and almost certainly a lot more) about their dance, than modern jive judges know about jive. But that doesn't make them good modern jive judges.

Any judge will have a standard that they judge against. Sometimes this might be formalised as in ballroom, other times it might be their own comparison with the best they have seen. The problem when you judge something different is that you don't have the standard to judge against. So what usually happens is they judge according to their normal criteria against their normal standard.

A ballroom judge would see a modern jive couple and start comparing how they used their feet, arms etc. But would they notice anything about musical interpretation? A West Coast Swing judge might mark anyone down that did moves at the expense of interpretation. A Salsa judge might mark a couple down for having a 'quiet' lead, and not feeling the music enough.

I like the idea of having a 'guest' judge from a different style, as you can always learn something different from their marks. But the majority of judges should be experienced modern jive dancers/teachers.


David

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Thats not a lot of dancers.

But it is enough to have a final, and make it a highlight of the evening. And it would make the advanced category a lot more popular to enter.

And if you have all these top dancers there - why not get them to judge the other divisions, and do some workshops as well...

David

[Jon]

It seems that beginners are forgotten about. Why isn't there a category for them after all there are alot of beginners out there and people who don't feel they have the confidence to enter as an intermediate let alone advanced.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jon
It seems that beginners are forgotten about. Why isn't there a category for them after all there are alot of beginners out there and people who don't feel they have the confidence to enter as an intermediate let alone advanced.

If memory serves me right the original Le Jive and the first Ceroc champs had a beginners section, for those who had been dancing for 6 months or less .... don't know why they stopped ... seemed like a good idea.

We did the same at Nantwich one freestyle ... two sections, those dancing for less than 6 months .. and the rest in the other section ... very few people willing to get on the floor for the beginners ... not really surprising really.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Gus

London: Dan Slape, Ray, Heather & partner, Roger C

Aussies: Tubsy & Jeanine, James & Hayley

LeRoc: Graham & Ann, Mark & partner, Sherif & Mandy

North: Pete & Kay, Gus & Helen, Keith, George Moss

Scotland: Bill & Fran

BUT I would say that none of the above are in the 'Super-Advanced' category. The best dancers (now) don't compete, e.g. Viktor & LKydia, Dan Baines, Sue Freeman, Nigel & Nina, Amir etc.

I think you are doing a great disservice to some of those dancers you have named, plus a few others you have omitted. You are implying that these dancers are not in the same league (ie. 'Super-Advanced') as the likes of Victor & Lydia, Nigel & Nina etc.

I, personally, disagree very strongly with you on that point. Having danced with and/or watched some of those named in your 'Super-Advanced' category, as well as danced with and/or watched those you have described as merely 'Advanced', I do not consider any of those in your 'Super-Advanced' category to be significantly better/more advanced than the others. In making my own 'judgement', I take into account ability to lead, connection, style, musical interpretation, variety of moves and the ability to relate to their partner. I also draw from my own experience (in excess of 30 years) as a dancer with background in ballet, ballroom & latin, acrobatic rock'n'roll, theatre-arts, modern jive, WCS and Hustle. Just because some of those named in your 'Super-Advanced' category are now establised teachers and/or judges, that in no way makes them better dancers than those listed under your 'Advanced' category. As an example, (and IMHO) the 2 Aussie/NZ guys are some of the most sensual, lyrical and interpretive dancers I have ever encountered in the modern jive world. Those are not, however, adjectives you would use to describe, for example, Dan Baines' or Nigel's style of dancing. Don't get me wrong - I am not dissing anyone in your 'Super' category; merely saying that I personally do not consider that anyone in the modern jive world deserves to be in a 'Super-Advanced' category, at least not until they prove their abilities by competing on an equal footing with the others. Perhaps that can be resolved by David's suggestion of a seperate competition category for champions/professionals?

Originally posted by Gus

Any other views?

You got what you asked for, Gus! But remember, these are just my own personal views on the matter.

LilyB

[Gus]

Originally posted by LilyB
I think you are doing a great disservice to some of those dancers you have named, plus a few others you have omitted. You are implying that these dancers are not in the same league (ie. 'Super-Advanced') as the likes of Victor & Lydia, Nigel & Nina etc.

No disservice intended ... just my personal view. Many thanks for your response .... exactly what I wanted.... and although you havn't changed my opinion, I recognise that your background/experience in dance far outwieghs mine (not hard really). I think your point re interpretation is well made but I think that only the two Aussie couples stand ahead of the pack.

PS Who do you think I've excluded ... I don't for one minute think I've seen all the good dancers on the block but I think I've covered all the recent finalists at Ceroc, Blackpool and Bristol.

Originally posted by LilyB
As an example, (and IMHO) the 2 Aussie/NZ guys are some of the most sensual, lyrical and interpretive dancers I have ever encountered in the modern jive world.

Luckily I think I sort of agreed with this point when I said....

Originally posted by Gus
So ... I would say, that given the above dancers, they are all well within reach of advancing intermediates ... possibly with only the Aussies having a real edge on the rest.

The main point I was trying to make, in my usual meandering way, was that I don't think there is a huge gap between the up and coming intermediates and the top of the current advanced dancers (OK .. maybe I'm wrong but thats my view). My other point was that the percieved 'super advanced' dancers don't compete ... any suggestions as to how we get them to do? Waht would it be worth to see Nigel&Nina, Viktor&Lydia, Amir, H, Joseph etc all go head to head .... thats one event I would pay very good money to see!

[John S]

Originally posted by Jon
It seems that beginners are forgotten about. Why isn't there a category for them after all there are alot of beginners out there and people who don't feel they have the confidence to enter as an intermediate let alone advanced.

Gus is right - the 1999 Ceroc championships theme was "Serious Fun", and it had a Beginners (<6mths) section. There were a lot of entries - some of them were obviously beginners but quite a few weren't (they had maybe only attended a Ceroc class for 6 months, but had experience of other similar dances.)

I have also heard that one of the medallists had been going to a Ceroc class for well over the 6 month minimum, and if it is true then it is very sad that anyone should enter on false pretences like that.

Despite those problems, I definitely agree with Jon that it would have been nice to have had a Beginners Section again at championships, to encourage those just starting out as dancers - unfortunately it seems to have fallen victim to the trend towards "serious" competition rather than "fun", and has been squeezed out in favour of more advanced, cabaret and showcase sections - all of which leave beginners thinking that the championships are not for them. Pity.

[CJ]

Originally posted by John S

Despite those problems, I definitely agree with Jon that it would have been nice to have had a Beginners Section again at championships, to encourage those just starting out as dancers - unfortunately it seems to have fallen victim to the trend towards "serious" competition rather than "fun", and has been squeezed out in favour of more advanced, cabaret and showcase sections - all of which leave beginners thinking that the championships are not for them. Pity.

hear 'ere. or is that here hear? eh, anyway, well said, old boy.

[Debster]

I personally agree that modern jive should be judged by a majority of modern jive people. It just seems right to be that way.

And yes, just because someone is a teacher, it doesn't mean they know anything or are good dancers (fortunately they do usually have a good head start).

But I still haven't heard what modern jive should be judged on that doesn't appear in other dances.

And - Don't even try to tell me that ballroom/latin doesn't have musical interpretation - the good ones definitely do.

That's all I have time for right now....
happy dancing!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Debster
But I still haven't heard what modern jive should be judged on that doesn't appear in other dances.

All partner dances are the roughly the same - a man leads a lady to dance together to the music. But all partner dances are different - the way the man and the lady stand, and move. The methods of leading are different. The music, and the effect it has on the dance is different. And the way the couple dance together is different. These differences are why we have Modern Jive, Lindy, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Shag, Boogie Woogie, Ballroom Jive, Jitterbug etc. All are similar, but all are different.

Anyone who is an expert on a particular dance is more than capable of giving a well reasoned explanation why one couple is better than another. That explanation is based on their personal preference on what is important in the dance (coupled with any guidance from the organiser on what the competition is aiming for). But what is important in one dance is not necessarily important in another.

Don't even try to tell me that ballroom/latin doesn't have musical interpretation - the good ones definitely do.

I should have said improvisation. Unless things have changed in the last couple of years, the top competitors in Latin do routines, and little else. They might be full of interpretation to the style of the music, but they will do the same routine in every heat of every competition, no matter what the music is. I think this is a real shame - the top latin dancers are ridiculously talented, and when you see them doing their demonstrations, they really show what they can do. I would love to see them interpret each song in a competition, not just the style.

Part of the problem is the music. Too much of it sticks so rigidly to the tempo that there is rarely anything to highlight. Another problem is risk - you will be a lot more consistent in your performance if you always do the same thing every time. But the main reason is that improvisation is not considered important in Latin.

I actually find Balloom dancers tend to dance more to the music. Their routines seem to be less structured - more a series of parts they can put together in any order. It's not exactly freestyle, but its not a set routine either. It seems to give them a bit more freedom. (But I've always preferred the style of ballroom to latin).

David