10th Anniversary dissapointment

[Dreadful Scathe]

I was going to start a new poll on this but feel its probably more productive to just get opinions from others...

Feel free to agree or disagree but I think Henry Wood Hall failed miserably as a 10th anniversary venue. It was far too crowded to the point the dancing was bordering on dangerous. Hugely dissapointing and it spoiled what was a major get together for a lot of people from all over the country.

On a positive note it was good to see so many people at it, especially those that made the effort from further away - hope they add to the numbers for next years Scottish Championships, to make that even more successful.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Feel free to agree or disagree but I think Henry Wood Hall failed miserably as a 10th anniversary venue.

You are right DS, I completely agree.
The Henry Wood Hall is a great venue, with great floor / acoustics and atmosphere, but tonight, it was simply too small

I would like to apologize to everyone, from Scotland, and to those of you who travelled from afar.
I made 2 big mistakes:

- First of all, I underestimated the number of people who would want to attend the event when I booked the Henry Wood Hall (in April!), I expected 200, maybe 250 people and the Henry Wood Hall would have been perfect for that.

- Second, I over-estimated the capacity of the hall. It is a big hall, and several times I was assured (re-assured?) by the Hall managers that they get ceilidhs with over 350 people regularly in the hall, and this is all I was able to base my limit on...

In hindsight, and bearing in mind that I was not able to take 350 people with me to check if they would fit prior to the event, I had 2 options:

1- Limit the numbers at the original 250 (anticipated), and face the wrath of the 200 other people who could not get a ticket... I did turn away about 50+ people in the last week...
2- Try and get an alternative venue at the last minute. This would have been the best option, but unfortunately, there are very few (very) large venues available on a Saturday night at such short notice, this is why I had booked the Henry Wood Hall 6+ months in advance.

All I can say, is sorry :sorry , and I promise it won't happen again. I was overwhelmed by the interest in this particular event.

To echo your positive points, I would like to thank everyone, for being so friendly, and maintaining a fantastic atmosphere. It was great to see everyone, and being back on stage with Jean brought back many memories.

Franck.

[Basil Brush]

DESPITE ABOVE, GOOD SOUNDS- WELL DONE TO THE DJs....


BAZ X (GOING FOR NO. 1 IN THE TOP 1- SADDOES CHART)

[TheTramp]

First up, let me say that you (DS and Franck) are both complete saddoes for being on the forum at 4am in the morning. Don't you need sleep? At least Franck has an excuse for the copious amounts of red bull (Whenever I saw him, he had a can in both hands) he consumed over the evening.

I have to agree. The size of the hall didn't reflect the number of people in there. However, since I was probably one of the last people to get a ticket, I can't complain too much, as else I wouldn't have been able to come. Yes. It's all my fault, I admit liability, and I will be strung up for whipping by whichever female forum....no.....nevermind....

However, it was a fantastic atmosphere. I got to dance with many of the forum members there (more about that in another thread I'm sure). And I had a really good time.

Roll on the 20th anniversary (hopefully in a bigger hall - you'll probably need Hampden Park by then).

Steve

[Sheila Phillips]

Thank you for your explanation and apology, Franck. And thank you too for all your work in organising such a big event.
Have a happy birthday yourself!
Sheila

[Bill]

Originally posted by Franck
- First of all, I underestimated the number of people who would want to attend the event when I booked the Henry Wood Hall (in April!), I expected 200, maybe 250 people and the Henry Wood Hall would have been perfect for that.

- Second, I over-estimated the capacity of the hall. It is a big hall, and several times I was assured (re-assured?) by the Hall managers that they get ceilidhs with over 350 people regularly in the hall, and this is all I was able to base my limit on...

Franck

I made my views clear to you before I left and I stand by what I said. I was bitterly disappointed at the event and I think your first comment is correct - the hall would have been perfect for 200-250. The floor space wasn't much greater than marco's where about 200 is more than enough.

As soon as we walked in it was clear the hall would not cater for 350 - and as an experienced dancer and franchise holder it should have been clear that it wasn't big enough for the number of tickets you were going to sell.

If it had not been such a special event I don't think so many people would have been so upset but this was - or should have been the Ceroc event of the year. I feel so sorry for the folk who came up from down south - some of whom spent a considerable amount of money to do so - to then get squashed into tiny spaces trying to avoid being kicked, elbowed or punched on the floor.

I've never seen so many disappointed and angry people at an event - nor so many who left so early. Had I not been with Fran, Helen and Gus I'd have left before the Ceilidh music finished as I'd had about 4 dances and spent each one not thinking of my partner but of simply doing moves to try and protect her from those dancers with absolutely no sense of body space whatsoever.

My only enjoyable dances - until the last 30 mins or so were on the carpet near the front door and I should have had my best night ever with so many great dancers from Scotland there and even though I manged to dance with Janey, Lilly and Jean it still was by far the most disappointing dance night I've had in 5 years of doing Ceroc.

Perhaps others will disagree or suggest I'm over-reacting but if the number of folk who told me last night how upset they were - and the number who left early - make any comments then I would imagine DS and I won't be alone in making our eather negative views known.

Sorry Franck. but as you can gather from what I said last night and from this I was very very disappointed.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

On a positive note it was good to see so many people at it, especially those that made the effort from further away - hope they add to the numbers for next years Scottish Championships, to make that even more successful.

I agree it was overcrowded and I'm sure it put quite a few off dancing. However I did meet a lot of really nice people and managed quite a few good dances (do have a few bruises from the not so good ones!).

The Dundee cabaret was once again super and the "Birthday Boy" presentation was brilliant.

"To expect improvement without change is insanity" so let's please have another night but with a much bigger hall. Never realised there were so many Cerocers out there!

Sandy

PS Happy Birthday Franck!

[John S]

Must say, I agree with Bill and DS - the venue was a major, major disappointment and as soon as I saw how small it was I knew the dances that night were going to be all about survival, not enjoyment.

A hall that nominally holds 350 / 500 guests where half of them are content to sit out half the night and drink their whisky was never going to cope with 350 people who want to dance nearly every dance.

I certainly heard a lot of unsolicited adverse and angry comments, and I'm particularly sorry for people who (as well as their admission money) paid significant amounts for travel and accommodation - they deserved better, although they may well be too polite to say so.

It's done now, and Franck has apologised and - short of a public whipping that he might even enjoy - there's not much can be done and I hope the lessons have been learned. But the facts are that most of those who attended probably won't read this forum and will think that either they are alone in their unhappiness or that Ceroc management is quite happy with how it all went.

And yes, there was lots of fun and good dances too, and it was great to meet up again with people from different venues, but ohhhh it could have been so much better in a different venue.

The danger now is that many people may react in the same way as me, which is to think twice before committing to attend a major event in a venue that I don't know.

[william_ceroc]

I hav to agree with Bill there is no way the hall was suited
which should be the number one consideration for any dance venue.

I think as a token jesture
another venue sometime
something to say thanks to all the hard work people hav put in over the years a thanku for people like Bill and others who hav promoted Ceroc and its good name without any gain to themselfs

well I think the venue was about 150 over at £10 a ticket that should get You a good dance venue
herd the Barrowlands isnt to expensive less than £1500 anyway
Dont mean to sound let down but everyone said before it was to small, I myself never bothered turning up till late so I could get a dance and even then it was a waste of time.
It was a real shame because so many people ( including yourself)had went to such a lot of trouble to make it such a special night

On a slight more sinister note what would hav happened in the current climate if there had been a fire?

William

I know we cant blame anyone just a shame it blotted a great night

[Wendy]

I went to bed last night and woke up this morning thinking about this post. With a little distance it will now be much less vitriolic and less of a personal attack on Franck than it could have been (probably even too strong for "Take It Outside" and perhaps enough to herald the end of my career as a taxi dancer !!)

Bill's post pretty much sums up my thoughts on most of the issues - the number of people, size of hall, safety etc. I'll add to that my dissatisfaction at the totally inadequate and overpriced bar facilities (the tap water ran out by 10 o'clock and a can of coke was £1 - I mean we are talking CEROC people here aren't we ?)

I missed the opportunity to spend a night doing what I love with great dancers from all over the UK - that's why I paid £10 to go.

CEROC missed the opportunity to thank their clientele for 10 years of custom.

I know, here's a crazy idea. You could throw US a party, Franck. After all, with 150 extra tickets sold, that comes to ......

Wx

[SwingSwingSwing]

I have to agree with DS, Bill, John S and william_ceroc. It was a total disappointment and by far the worst Ceroc event I have attended.

As soon as I walked in door and saw the number of people doing the class and the number of people at the tables my heart dropped. If it hadn't been such a special occasion I would have been asking for a refund right there and then. And on reflection, I wish I had.

Going onto the dance floor became an exercise in self defence. I twice left the floor midsong because it just was not safe. For one song I danced facing the same direction to shield my partner from a guy who backed up into me or threw his partner into me every couple of moves.

Franck, I am very surprised that you would allow your judgement to be swayed by the managers of the Henry Wood Hall. Your initial estimate the Henry Wood Hall would be sufficient for 250 dancers seems to me absolutely sound. You are the one that has the 10 years experience of organising Ceroc events not them.

And even when your attendance estimate proved to be low, I think you should have stuck to your guns and not increased the number of tickets. The event had been advertised for months and if people don't get round to buying tickets in time that's their problem, not yours.

Sorry for being so negative, but I had to get if off my chest.

SwingSwingSwing

[Fran]

along with Sandy, thanks for the appology Frank. I not saying this to rub any salt in your wounds at all. I do agree with what has been said so far on the thread and by everyone I spoke to last night. unfortunatley it is done now and hopefully wont be repeated.

I feel very sad that this happend last night. As a person who dances in the U.K I was aware that this year for the 1st time there seemed to be a far greater interest and also a realisation from England ( no comments comming back - I am " english" myself) that we do have many lovely dancers, male and female and a great welcoming atmosphere up here in Scotland. This would have been the perfect oppertunity for Scottish Ceroc to enhance the posiative feeling which grew after the Scottish competition. There were at least 45 people - some of whom were top national dancers who came up at considerable expense to see us all and were disapointed at the size of the venue as were we all. I only hope very much that if anything happens in the future that they may come and see us again.


If there does turn out to be a yearly scottish event may I suggest that perhaps there may only be 1 event rather than 2 close together - ie the Scottish competition then a month later the Scottish party. People's budget both in terms of financial and time may not stretch to both events.

Many dance organisations take over a whole (large )hotel for the weekend several of these do infact have very large dance floors and great facilities. If booked in advance and outwith the wedding season very good deals are obtained by the organisers - buget prices are then passed on to the dancers for room deals.


I guess we are not used to "not enjoying ourselves" at a dance night and it was because it was a very special night yesterday which we were all looking forward to so much that it was why we were so disapointed. A lack of space in any venue causes very real and justified concern by dancers because it is dangerous and unplesant and not what the members pay for.

I am sorry that you have so much negiative feedback on your birthday Frank,birthdays should be special days so remember that Ceroc has given us so many evenings over the years of pure enjoyment.


Fran

[Tiggerbabe]

Where to start? I was sooooo looking forward to this weekend. Meeting people from all over the UK, dancing with a lot of them and celebrating the 10th Anniv in style.

Sadly I was disappointed firstly due to the size of the hall for the number of people and I'm sorry to say that I think you should have realised Franck, after visiting the venue, that it wouldn't be big enough to accomodate "dancers" 300 odd people maybe but not "dancers". I'm also not sure that there weren't perhaps over 400 people there. There weren't enough tables and chairs for everyone (thank goodness!) and as for the bar running out of water - please, surely they were told beforehand that the majority of people would NOT be drinking alcohol.

I don't live in Glasgow, and therefore can't be sure, but Glasgow is bound to have another hall that would have been bigger - I've been told that there is a hall in Paisley that is easily twice as big.

I do agree with Fran though, it's done and dusted now and the question is what to do about it. Something, please Franck, to prove to people out there that the motive was not money - after all a lot of people spent a lot of time and money to get to Glasgow and stay in Glasgow and I do think you owe them something.

I must apologise about the cabaret performance on behalf of my crew. There simply wasn't enough space for us to do it any justice. For a start we could hardly get into the hall and had to fight through the crowd and then once we were in place those around the dancefloor simply moved in. The couples on the outside of the line were concerned that they were going to do some harm to those sitting right beside them and we spent most of the routine bumping arms with each other. I am very sorry for the people who didn't see it in Musselburgh - we did have a rehearsal honest (Sorry Alex for knocking your glasses off and watching helpless as you had to dive to pick them up!)
Thanks though for all of the kind comments - and the applause


On the other hand!

I don't want this post to be totally negative - I had a great night, eventually! With some brilliant dances in the last hour.

It was great to dance with those up from the South, so Mike (Newcastle), Keith (what a great Orkadian strip the willow that was - loved the shirt by the way ),Tramp and a special mention to David B for the WCS dance (ever felt unworthy - after watching David and Lily dance?)- Gus, oh yeh that's right no dance for Sheena from Gus (and I changed into those trousers specially!!! ).

A huge well done to Heather for singing as "Pink" and to the other members of Franck's birthday party dancing team- most especially Mairi who noticed that Linda and I had on the wrong knickers (F-R-N-A-C-K ).Well done girls (the business cards are off to the printers and price list is being made up as I speak ).

The music was brilliant - CJ'S outfit was fabulous - Curtain (have you had your hair cut?).

And to the taxi driver who picked us up at the end of the street - thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

[william_ceroc]

Apart the party

Just to say thanks for all ur hard work over the last 10 years I havnt agreed with all of it but a great big thanku
for teaching myself and many other people to Ceroc

Thank you

[Gus]

Well I've had a seven hour drive back to Manchester to think over last night and discuss with Helen, my dance partner. Having read the previous posting I find a lot to agree with then, especialy Bill and Fran's .... and don't really thinks its helpful to harp on ... except for one point (maybe referred to previously). .... a lot of southenrs made great efforts to get to Glasgow (well over 50 I believe) and I feel they were given a distored view of what a fun place it is. I think that it would be 'nice(?)' to recover the image which has now been tarnished.

One example to put it in perspective ... one of the senior Blitz instructors was teaching a workshop in Darlington during Sat. He drove all the way to Glasgow with his partner ... got there at 9 ... managed to fight in about half a dozen dances ... then left by 12 to drive all the way back to Manchester .... for whom I feel especially dissapointed.

Right Two points I need to get off my chest ... and these are not Devils Advocate points ... these are two points that achieved something pretty rare for a ceroc event ... they actualy made me ANGRY.

1) What the hell happened to common sense and floorspace ettiquette??? :reallymad If there isn't enough room on the dancefloor .... YOU DON'T GET ON IT!! I cant remember the last time I have had so many idiots throwing themselves and/or their partner into me and my partner. Ask the Tramp ... he was having to execute self defence moves to stop one particular twerp blasting into his partner

2) Similar ... but my main contention .... what possessed those morons to do airsteps??? I saw at least three guys doing them when there wasn't room to do an armjive. They know who they are ... I could name names but I won't. I've got a fair idea what should be done to them BUT ... its not my venue ..... though I know from other comments that a lycnhing party was in the offing at one point. For those that have a view ... see the poll.

Please, does someone agree with me? ... these guys are a danger to themselves, their partners and every dancer on the dancefloor.:reallymad

[Graham]

Since I'm posting on this thread anyway, I might as well start by recording my agreement with the sentiments expressed by DS, Bill, and the others. It's already been said, so suffice to say that I, like many others, was hugely disappointed.

Originally posted by Gus
2) Similar ... but my main contention .... what possessed those morons to do airsteps??? I saw at least three guys doing them when there wasn't room to do an armjive. They know who they are ... I could name names but I won't. I've got a fair idea what should be done to them BUT ... its not my venue ..... though I know from other commets that a lycnhing party was in the offing at one point. For those that have a view ... see the poll.

Please, does someone agree with me? ... these guys are a danger to themselves, their partners and every dancer on the dancefloor.:reallymad

Absolutely 100%. I haven't yet had the pleasure of dancing with Laura, and came within inches of making this a permanent condition, as her partner repeatedly threw parts of her into the general vicinity of my feet at floor level. And as you say, he wasn't the only one. It makes you wonder whether some people really should be shown the door when they insist on executing these completely inappropriate moves. The thing which makes my blood boil is that they're clearly not beginners (or incompetent) - they must have practised a lot to learn these moves - so how can they have learned so little about dance-floor etiquette and safety? :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

[Heather]

How come they have learned so little about dance floor etiquette and safety,Graham? I would have thought that was obvious - The persons concerned are Ignorant, Selfish Prats.
Where was the lynching party, Gus? I'd have joined in. I was on the verge of charging over to the OffendingPerson myself at one point.
And why NOT name names?? If you know who they are,' Name and Shame ', I say!!!!!!

Heather

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
1) What the hell happened to common sense and floorspace ettiquette??? :reallymad If there isn't enough room on the dancefloor .... YOU DON'T GET ON IT!!

And that's one of the reasons I didn't dance much. :reallymad

I know I love blues ( everyone knows that now) but having to stay clsoe enough to my partner - when dancing fast - is not approporiate. I'm not a big lad and didn't feel I could 'protect' my partners so I did what Gus suggets and stayed off the floor.

No room to play to the music - and it meant that the dances I had with Lilly, Jabey and Jean were in confined spaces and involved me dancing with one eye on my partner and one eye ( often both) searching round for those idiots who think throwing a woman into another dancer - or doing drops or aerials when there's no room is fun :reallymad :reallymad

I love dancing - and meeting new folk which was what I was really looking forward to - there were lots of women I didn't recognise and I'd have loved to dance with - but where ? i did have a few out by the front door - but even that was being used by others

I didn't even dance with many of the Aberdeen or Dundee girls - or even with Brady - and he promised :sorry

But perhaps it's time for teachers - or someone - to spot these lunatics who do dangerous moves and have a word with them - or if necessary ban them !!!!!!!! :reallymad I want to have fun and have a partner who can walk off the floor in one piece at the end of the song.

If Franck is still reading this---- I want to say a big thank you for having set ceroc up in Aberdeen - if it hadn't been there I'd never have danced and had 5 really wonderful years dancing round the country - or met so many great people. That doesn't let you off the hook for messing up the party gig time ! maybe you need a full-time asssitant to do the organising for you Franck !:sorry

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Bill


.... maybe you need a full-time asssitant to do the organising for you Franck !:sorry

Franck - I'll leave you my card tomorrow.

Ms Wendy Law (not and never been Robinson )
Trading As
Organised Living ......(I'm not kidding !!!)

Wx

Ps Thanks for bringing that back on topic, Bill !

[Gadget]

Just to add my voice...
Everyone knows the space:dancer ratio was way to small, so I won't repeat the obvious. {BTW what would you say was the optimum space for you and your partner to dance in ?.... another post I think.}

(Other) points about the evening that I would like to make comment uppon;
- The venue
A lot of comment has been made about space, but with a bit more forethought, the hall could have been expanded a bit; the tables could all have been removed, with seats lining the edges. (the alcoves could still have seating in them, and a cloakroom could have been manned.) Hindsight. Same with the bar - running out of watter!! I also noted that they had vanished towards the end of the night. {BTW £1 for a can of coke is not too bad - I have had to pay a lot more}

- The 'lesson'
I realise that it's not a Ceroc party without a lesson, but I don't think it was really necissary at this event: there was a high proportion of fabulous dancers who could lead a beginner with no problems. In saying this I applaud Franck on the choice of moves; whether by good luck or good judgement, the moves lent themselves to close dancing - a necessity on the night.

- The band
So it was a 'feature' of the night, but I did hear more than a few comments that people had come to 'Ceroc', not 'Eeeuch'. Quite a good selection of dances, but IMHO took up too much away from the real dancing time. Perhaps a few chuchter(?spelling) tracks from the DJ and a caller would have sufficed?

- The cabaret
Nice Everyone appreciates watching a good dance/ good dancers - perhaps the stage could be utilised to showcase some couples during the evening? Have one slot per track and invite some good dancers to fill it for that song. It would give those sitting on the side-lines a good spectacle, perhaps thin the floor a bit as well.

- The dancing
I performed loads more close moves than I thought I knew! I learned quite a bit from the evening's dancing; how to better control my partner's place on the floor and how to recall them or move them out of the way without loosing the dance. An experience.

- The people
Nice to meet all of you guys (if somewhat briefly) Everyone with whom I danced and spoke with was friendly and sociable, even when bitching about space.

If next year can improve on this year's "battery hen" feel, (and how could it not?) then I am eagerly anticipating it already !