Bristol Leroc 2002 Competition

[Karen W]

I happened to be on a workshop at the weekend taught by Adam. I had no idea who he was until I met him. He must be Ceroc's biggest secret, the guy is just totally amazing.

What do others think, personally I think V & L are great, but Adam has the edge on them.

This is the guy you need to hope does not enter, although he was not teaching with Mandy I heard she was also a former OZ winner, (surprise surprise) and won the Ceroc Champs with Adam last year.

If you do not know Adam, I would recomend making the effort.

I would like him to do some workshops more in the midlands if anyone can arrange this?

Just when I thought there was no life after N & N.

ps, who is Alan Pratt? sounds like the kind of person I would like to dance with?

Karen

[Gus]

Originally posted by Karen W

I would like him to do some workshops more in the midlands if anyone can arrange this?

Well ... if you're in the Bedford area then you come under the Ceroc Central region which has a number of excellent teachers running a range of workshops ... especially Emma. Try www.cerocentral.com ... or something like that

ps, who is Alan Pratt? sounds like the kind of person I would like to dance with?

Karen

Alan is an extremely nice and very talented dancer ... but he's also firmly Southern based ..... think he hangs out at the Casbah and Ashtons .... but that info is probably about a yaer or two out of date.

[TheTramp]

Adam is a very good dancer, and an excellent teacher. At the ceroc champs last year a team choreographed by Mandy, with Adam dancing, won the team trophy. I doubt that many people on here will know who he is (yet), as apart from teaching at his own classes (cerocmetro), I've not heard of him teaching in other places. Whether this is about to change, you'll have to ask him about

Alan Pratt is a very good jive dancer, and as already said, an excellent blues dancer. With his partner, Sarah Bryen, they won the UK blues competition in the two years that it has been running (modesty forbids me from saying who was the runner up this year though ). He is usually dancing at St. Albans on a Thursday (where Adam will be teaching) if you fancy a trip down. It's not that far from Bedford. He also frequents Hipsters. He's the very tall bloke with the hooded look.

Hope this helps
Steve

Addition to Gus' info. He has been seen at Ashtons on the Saturday party night, very infrequently. I don't recall seeing him there on a Wednesday. He also doesn't go to Casbah very often - usually only if something is happening there (someones birthday or something). Although, due to obvious reasons, my information is also a year out of date!!

[Karen W]

Thank you, I have been to Emmas classes, and with all due respect, Emma is a complete amatuer by comparison.


I take it gus you have not actually seen Adam

Karen

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
If the judges go for the moves ... well, V&L have those by the bucket load. If they go for the dancing, then I've only seen a few competitors who achieve this...

Without a doubt if a competition were judged purely on moves, then I can't see anyone beating Viktor. But there are so many other things that make up good dancing, and a whole different set of things that make up a good performance. I haven't seen anyone who is better than everyone else in more than one area.

Chance2Dance say that "Points will be awarded for Style, Presentation, Musical Interpretation and Dress". They don't mention anything about the number of moves! (Actually they don't mention anything about dancing...???)

There are so many different styles of Jive now. There are some dancers who are superb to some types of music, and completely uninspired by other genres. The judges will probably be looking for completely different things. It is anything but a forgone conclusion who would win.

David

[TheTramp]

Karen, I feel that's a bit unfair, and doesn't really show any of this due respect! I haven't been to any of Emma's classes. But she's a very good dancer. I'm sure she does a good job as a teacher.

Adam's style obviously suited you. Which is good. Go to more of his classes if you enjoy them. There's no need to put other people down though.

Regards
Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Karen W
Thank you, I have been to Emmas classes, and with all due respect, Emma is a complete amatuer by comparison.


I take it gus you have not actually seen Adam

Karen

Think I met him at the CTA update and saw him at the Ceroc champs ... afraid to say didn't see anything out of the ordinary but than again most people were just dancing, so probably didn't see him at his best. If he comes up for the Champs, I'll see him then. Anyone who can make Emma look like an amatuer must be worth seeing, even V&L can't do that.

[Karen W]

I am sorry Steve, I did not mean to sound as though I was putting Emma down. I think she is totaly fab. Adam is however totally refreshing and if there is such a thing, a teacher genius.

Enough about him I guess, but he really is worth seeing. He did a short cabaret which was soooo second to none.

I am surprised how few people this side of the M25 know of him though, he said he has been teaching for about 7 or 8 years

Karen

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Without a doubt if a competition were judged purely on moves, then I can't see anyone beating Viktor. But there are so many other things that make up good dancing, and a whole different set of things that make up a good performance

It is anything but a forgone conclusion who would win.

David

Fair comment. What I was trying to say, and obviously failing, is that from my limited view of dancing I feel that V&L are the most complete dancers I know.

My observation of the competitors I've seen so far is that, in comparison, they are one dimensional ... giving emphasis to a limited area of dance ... with the exceptions of the Auusies. V&L are among the few dancers I've seen who manage to combine musicality, move complexity and style into a single performance. The only other couple I've seen near that level is N&N.

Having said that ... I've not seen a lot of the talent on the Southern circuit and ... whatever has been said before, its all down to the performance on the day and what the referees are looking for... and much like any competition, the only thing that is certain is that most people will have a differing opinion to the judges!

Out of interest, are there any couples that you think are of a similar level to V&L? Maybe Amir and Kate (I've not yet seen them dance together but have heard they're wonderful).

[TheTramp]

Maybe Amir and Kate (I've not yet seen them dance together but have heard they're wonderful).

Difficult to say. They are definitely very smooth, and combine some useful styles into their jive (Argentinian tango, and ballet!). However, I've only ever seen them perform one routine, which is only 2.5 minutes long (although, I have seen them perform it about 10 times now). It's quite a nice routine, but nothing out of the ordinary. They did teach very well together at Camber in May too.

Steve

[Rachel]

Originally posted by DavidB
Chance2Dance say that "Points will be awarded for Style, Presentation, Musical Interpretation and Dress".

What on earth does 'dress' have to do with dancing ability? Why should you be judged on the clothes you're wearing? Don't understand ...

How many times have you heard people saying: you have to wear something glitzy at competitions to get noticed, if want a place? Why can't you wear whatever the hell you want and not have to worry about being marked down for it? Am I just being ignorant or missing something here???
Rachel

[TheTramp]

What on earth does 'dress' have to do with dancing ability? Why should you be judged on the clothes you're wearing? Don't understand ...

I quite agree. I would like to see all reference to what you're wearing taken out of competitions. After all, those with more money, or superior sewing skills, or just the time to go scour shops for costumes get an advantage over those without the above. And, some people will always look better no matter what they wear.

Of course, those running the competitions, would no doubt say that the clothes add to the competition, and if everyone just turned up in their usual dancing gear, it wouldn't be quite the same spectacle.

Depends whether you're running a fashion show, or a dance competition I guess...

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I quite agree. I would like to see all reference to what you're wearing taken out of competitions. After all, those with more money, or superior sewing skills, or just the time to go scour shops for costumes get an advantage over those without the above. And, some people will always look better no matter what they wear.

Steve

The point may be that competitions are about a visual display, a performance. So, part of that is how the dance looks ... and this is enhanced (or not) by the costumes. you could also argue against some of the flashy hand/arm gestures but again this appears to be part of dance performance .... just as long as they don't force us to start wearing fake tan and having fixed grins plastered across our faces.....

[TheTramp]

having fixed grins plastered across our faces

That's what my partners usually have. I'm assuming it's that they're enjoying themselves.

Though, I suppose it could be fear!?!

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Rachel
What on earth does 'dress' have to do with dancing ability?

Not a lot. But in most dance competitions, it is not just about dancing ability - it is also about performing in front of people. 'Dress' can make a big difference to the look of the performance. I'm not sure it should be explicitly part of the judging criteria though...

How many times have you heard people saying: you have to wear something glitzy at competitions to get noticed, if want a place?

There is something to this. When there are several couples on the floor, judging is very difficult. With 10 couples on the floor, each judge would have less than 20 seconds to look at each couple. Anything that makes you stand out a bit can help - it makes it easier for the judge to see you, and know he has seen you. Being just another couple in black makes you blend in with everyone else. At best the judge would have to think twice if he has marked you - at worst he might forget about you. (I know the men wear numbers, but you can spend several seconds waiting for a man to turn round so you can see his number.)

Apart from competitions, the one other time that dress makes a big difference is in a cabaret. If I am paying someone to perform, and have booked them in advance, then I would expect them to make an effort in their appearance. T-shirts and jeans do not suggest a professional approach.

David

[Rachel]

Originally posted by DavidB
Apart from competitions, the one other time that dress makes a big difference is in a cabaret. If I am paying someone to perform, and have booked them in advance, then I would expect them to make an effort in their appearance. T-shirts and jeans do not suggest a professional approach.

David

Oh yes, I definitely agree with your point above.

And I can see what you're saying about needing to stand out if you want the judges to see you, but surely that should be up to the individuals - as you say, "I'm not sure it should be explicitly part of the judging criteria though..."
Rachel

[Lou]

Originally posted by Rachel
"I'm not sure it should be explicitly part of the judging criteria though..."

I think it's odd, too, that it's a criteria for the competition (especially when "dancing" or "moves" aren't mentioned!), however, isn't it better that it's stated explicitly, so that all competitors know what the judges are looking for?

As Gus said though - please don't let it get as far as fake tans!

[Gadget]

Personally, I would have thought that 'Dress' was a part of 'Style'. I suppose it depends on your definition, but 'Dress' to me equals apperance. And if you are going to start judging competitions on looks, then some of us have a negative score before we start !!
Costumes definetly can add to a performance, but I would doubt that anyone would choose to wear something that would detract from their dancing (hooped clown trousers, flippers & snorkle...)
There is also the theory that if you think you look good, then you actually do look better than if you think you don't. Positive mental attitude or somthing: Think sexy - be sexy.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
whatever has been said before, its all down to the performance on the day and what the referees are looking for... and much like any competition, the only thing that is certain is that most people will have a differing opinion to the judges!

Have to disagree Gus.......( at last ). I'd like to think that all the judges at any comp would be absolutely fair and judge only the performance before them but as human beings they will be subject to all sorts of 'pressure' and personal bias.

There are dancers - many of those named on this thread ( and unfortunately many I don't know) - who are very well known and as soon as they get on to the floor all the judges will recognise them and know what their potential is so what the 'unknown' dancers have to do is to dance as well as the others can dance - not necessarily how well they dance in that round !

This has been touched on before on another thread and someone made the comparison with ice-skating and skaters being judged as much on their reputation as on their actual performance.

To back this up I think all you have to do is look at some recent comps and see that some finalists don't appear to be dancing that well - and certainly not really interpreting the music but they are often well known dancers and certainly well known to the judges - some even tutored by some of the judges ( another issues I've raised before !).

But I'd love to see all these dancers compete against each other. What a comp that would be

[TheTramp]

whatever has been said before, its all down to the performance on the day and what the referees are looking for... and much like any competition, the only thing that is certain is that most people will have a differing opinion to the judges!

Missed this earlier. And I have to agree with Bill.

A very well known, male dancer, who is often asked to judge competitions (and will remain nameless (unless large sums of money are deposited in my bank accound)) allegedly told a friend of mine, that he judges at least partly on reputation, as well as performance on the day.

I suppose that it's possibly not necessarily a bad thing. If Viktor and Lydia were in a competition, and had an absolute howler of a first round, so bad that there's no way they'd deserve to get through (hey, it happens!), would you really stop them going through, on the grounds that they could never be that bad again?

I didn't put that very well, but I think you'll all get the gist!

Steve