Is there anything new to say about MJ?

[geoff332]

As a lead it annoys me when my partner tries to "do her thing" and I am too slow to react and break it up. I know I am supposed to be able to predict when to give her space, but too often it is beyond me. Even a tiny tap of a finger as a signal would be a help (I know, signals are evil ...) Maybe it is as simple as looking at her at the right moment, instead of scanning the surroundings for where it is safe to put her next.

The essence of partner dancing is to allow both partners to "do their thing" while still dancing together.

The way I've been taught is that when there's just connection, the follow can improvise to her heart's content. The indication that she's finished is when she provides compression back into the lead. Similarly, the lead can provide compression to indicate that the current movements over and it's time to get on with something else. If you agree, then you reciprocate the compression. When you have either compression or tension, then there's far less room for improvisation.

Of course that's not taught in ceroc classes and at any venue I've been to only a very small number of dancers actually do this (and those that try to often do it poorly - I'd put myself in that category). When it works, I've found it far more fluid and connected than using signals; it both looks better and feels better. When it's not there, I tend to rely on the more subtle indications - like trying to feel the weight change and watching her out of the corner of my eye. Or the occasional signal.

[philsmove]

The essence of partner dancing is to allow both partners to "do their thing" while still dancing together.

The way I've been taught is that when there's just connection, .......
Of course that's not taught in ceroc classes and at any venue I've been to .

But why is this
One of the first things you will be taught, at any decent Tango class, is the connection and giving your partner time "to do her thing"

I suspect the reason is, its a very difficult thing to teach/ learn and can only be "understood" when dancing with a partner who is "better" than you

the Ceroc ethos is getting you to dance and enjoy your self quickly , nothing wrong with this , but as there are only two levels, beginners and intermediates , it can be difficult to move to another level

[bigdjiver]

Sorry if this is the effect I am having. I certainly don't want to break your flow, but I tend to look at better dancers than me, and wish I could style in a similar vein... If in order to not break the lead's concentration needs a signal then I am quite willing to learn it or whatever else I need to know...

I have this problem because I am not a good enough lead for more advanced dancers. I dance too much with beginners and a large variety of partners. I am sure if I danced more regularly with the better dancers I would improve.

An example that I have used elsewhere is the catapult... Sometimes if I am not spinning well (for whatever reason) I find lots of leads on back to back tracks give me the catapult several times each I would be fine with one or two catapults, but any more than that I do get a bit dizzy, so I would love to use the music / styling to give myself a bit of space to recover...

Steal - instead of spinning all the way around stop facing away from partner and put your hands behind you. I think you will find that just once on the receiving end of a catapult will change their attitude.

Drathzel gave me a couple of plays that don't go down too badly (particularly in the Blues room), but being able to use them in the ordinary room is not so easy.. If there is a signal or way to do this officially then I am 1st in the queue to learn.

Instead of taking an offered hand start to do your own thing. If it needs the guy as a prop then offer a hand when you are obviously not asking to be led.

I would hate to alienate any of the leaders who put up with me.

Whitetiger

Sometimes a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta ...

[Gadget]

...I find lots of leads on back to back tracks give me the catapult several times each

I would be fine with one or two catapults, but any more than that I do get a bit dizzy, so I would love to use the music / styling to give myself a bit of space to recover...

Dahling, the catapult and the wrap are the only 'basic' moves that the left hand can be collected with ease; and the "wrap" is an intermediate move. The Catapult is also one of the easiest moves for the followers to hi-jack... should you be that way inclined

But why is this
One of the first things you will be taught, at any decent Tango class, is the connection and giving your partner time "to do her thing"

I suspect that your explanation is only part of it - In Tango, almost every step is a pose or drama point. In MJ we tend to wait for breaks or changes in the music to give the followers a pose or drama point: I think that musicality may be another facet.

It may also be that any beginner (or even a lot of intermediate dancers) when faced with an open space in the lead to do something, look blankly with confusion and say "yea - what you want me to do?".

Another reason may be that if you teach the followers to fill in the spaces in the lead with styling that there becomes confusion on what is a space, when & how to lead it, when & how to pick up the lead again, ... etc. I think that beginners have enough to cope with in just learning to lead and follow without this additional blurring of the lines.

[bigdjiver]

The essence of partner dancing is to allow both partners to "do their thing" while still dancing together.

The way I've been taught is that when there's just connection, the follow can improvise to her heart's content. ..

But why is this
One of the first things you will be taught, at any decent Tango class, is the connection and giving your partner time "to do her thing"...

Metaphorically Ceroc starts with a house of straw, and moves the leader up to a house of sticks. Leader and partner dance mindless of the rain whilst in other dance forms they are rain-sodden ditches establishing the foundations for a house of brick.

I still meet partners at Ceroc that have moved on to Tango or other dance forms, it must be doing something right.

[geoff332]

But why is this

I think you answered your own question...

One of the first things you will be taught, at any decent Tango class, is the connection and giving your partner time "to do her thing"

I learnt it first in ballroom and have since had it retaught in modern jive. One thing that makes it a little harder in open dances is the hold. In tango and ballroom, you simply have more connection through the closed hold and you very rarely break that as a beginner. In modern jive, the starting position is to maintain connection through one hand, which I found quite a bit harder to get.

I suspect the reason is, its a very difficult thing to teach/ learn and can only be "understood" when dancing with a partner who is "better" than you

It's certainly tricky to learn at the start, but I wouldn't call this advanced technique of any sort (there are advanced techniques that build on this foundation, which can't be done without the idea of lead and follow). I'm not sure you need to dance with an advanced dancer to get it; there are basic exercises that can help get the feel of it quite quickly.

Also, you can dance ceroc adequately without learning proper lead and follow. This is evidenced by the fact that thousands of people do so every night.

the Ceroc ethos is getting you to dance and enjoy your self quickly , nothing wrong with this , but as there are only two levels, beginners and intermediates , it can be difficult to move to another level

There are a lot of reasons for it. I've had dance teachers go through a class and physically adjust people's posture many times. But that's just not possible in a typical ceroc class. Working through the nuances of connection with a hundred people is tricky; I seen teachers do it well, but they've always been very special teachers. Putting this stuff in at the beginners class would intimidate many people (especially if it's not done extremely well), which is a major problem for ceroc.

I'd like to see it taught and taught properly in the intermediate class (and I think it can be done without making the classes seem too hard - for teacher or punter). But I doubt that will happen on a wide scale.

[geoff332]

Metaphorically Ceroc starts with a house of straw, and moves the leader up to a house of sticks. Leader and partner dance mindless of the rain whilst in other dance forms they are rain-sodden ditches establishing the foundations for a house of brick.

And a year later, the other dancers have a nice little duplex, while the cerocers are still in their house of sticks.

Although I'm not sure they actually get to the sticks stage; the majority just keep throwing piling up straw and more closely resemble a haystack than a house. And after a protracted period of rain, it will start to smell a little.

[philsmove]

I still meet partners at Ceroc that have moved on to Tango or other dance forms, it must be doing something right.

Nothing wrong with Ceroc or Tango, I and lots of my frinds enjoy both

[straycat]

The way I've been taught is that when there's just connection, the follow can improvise to her heart's content. The indication that she's finished is when she provides compression back into the lead. Similarly, the lead can provide compression to indicate that the current movements over and it's time to get on with something else. If you agree, then you reciprocate the compression. When you have either compression or tension, then there's far less room for improvisation.

Out of interest, who teaches this?

I confess it's not an improvisation method that I particularly enjoy - I prefer improvisations that are more of a shared experience, rather than the 'your turn-my turn' variety. That said - if I have 'handed over' the initiative to my partner, I want to be able to support her in anything she does, which can, for some followers, easily include some fairly heavy tension & compression - so that way of passing over / back the lead doesn't really work for me.

[bigdjiver]

... I confess it's not an improvisation method that I particularly enjoy - I prefer improvisations that are more of a shared experience, rather than the 'your turn-my turn' variety. That said - if I have 'handed over' the initiative to my partner, I want to be able to support her in anything she does, which can, for some followers, easily include some fairly heavy tension & compression - so that way of passing over / back the lead doesn't really work for me.

My objective would be the dance equvalent of conversation or, better still, a duet. I am the stage of too often butting in, not hearing correctly, talking over, and, occasionally, making inappropriate comments or jokes.

This is an area where my "dance with everybody" philosophy does not help. OTOH there are relationship dangers in intense connection. There are times when I am convinced that the only "right" move in the moment would be to kiss the girl, but that is unlikely, to say the least, to be a majority opinion.

[bigdjiver]

And a year later, the other dancers have a nice little duplex, while the cerocers are still in their house of sticks...

It depends, of course, how much effort people are committed to put in. For the same amount of effort the Cerocers have somewhere they can stay, whereas the condo builders have only some water filled trenches where the foundations would be. Ceroc does take dance to the lazy, and does give them the confidence that they can build.

The sad thing about other more disciplined dance forms is that too many give up on those, but never try anything else. They only know failure. For me lesson 1 is always "You will enjoy the class" and lesson 2 "You will be able to do it."

[Gadget]

And a year later, the other dancers have a nice little duplex, while the cerocers are still in their house of sticks.

Although I'm not sure they actually get to the sticks stage; the majority just keep throwing piling up straw and more closely resemble a haystack than a house. And after a protracted period of rain, it will start to smell a little.

And while we dance in a swampy quagmire, sticks can be the best thing to build from. If you want to build your tower of stones, it's easier to find some high ground first, then you can look down on the rest of the people who "can't" dance. I'm happy in among everyone, getting wet and dirty, living in my house of sticks, paddling out there on my raft of straw.

{there ain't too many crocs out here are there? }

[straycat]

{there ain't too many crocs out here are there? }

I'm wearing a pair right now

[straycat]

And while we dance in a swampy quagmire, sticks can be the best thing to build from. If you want to build your tower of stones, it's easier to find some high ground first, then you can look down on the rest of the people who "can't" dance. I'm happy in among everyone, getting wet and dirty, living in my house of sticks, paddling out there on my raft of straw.

I don't believe it's a case of what you build your tower / house / whatever from.
I believe it's simply a case of how you build your foundations. As a gross simplification, with good enough foundations you can build pretty much whatever you like. If your foundations are shaky, your options become extremely limited.

IMO, MJ simply trades good foundations for accessibility - a trade off that (I suspect) almost all of us were happy with when we started, but for some of us, it didn't stand the test of time... and we ended up having to rip out those foundations and start over.

[straycat]

This is an area where my "dance with everybody" philosophy does not help. OTOH there are relationship dangers in intense connection. There are times when I am convinced that the only "right" move in the moment would be to kiss the girl, but that is unlikely, to say the least, to be a majority opinion.

Aaaaaaaah - young Padawan - learn to turn away from these base earthly feelings you must. Only then your spirit free to eternity and beyond will soar, and the Dance Force truly yours shall be.

[bigdjiver]

Aaaaaaaah - young Padawan - learn to turn away from these base earthly feelings you must. Only then your spirit free to eternity and beyond will soar, and the Dance Force truly yours shall be.

but is that really better than a good snog?

[straycat]

but is that really better than a good snog?

Hell yes!

[emmylou25]

Out of interest, who teaches this?

I think Geoff's talking about Simon & Nicole who teach a lot of technique about tension and compression.

I think it works very well if both dancers know this technique and use it, although some people I dance with who take their classes don't necessarily follow this if I try it. I do think though, that's it's probably more important for both dancers need to be quite in tune with each other to be able to hear the same kind of 'playful' moments in the music

[geoff332]

Out of interest, who teaches this?

I think Geoff's talking about Simon & Nicole who teach a lot of technique about tension and compression.

I think it works very well if both dancers know this technique and use it, although some people I dance with who take their classes don't necessarily follow this if I try it. I do think though, that's it's probably more important for both dancers need to be quite in tune with each other to be able to hear the same kind of 'playful' moments in the music

Simon and Nicole teach that approach (that not everyone gets it is a separate issue; a lot are established ceroc dancers who struggle to learn a new trick). Phil and Yuko have also hinted at it (and Yuko does this beautifully when you dance with her). Nigel and Nina also teach a similar thing. But I first encountered it many years ago, in Latin American.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the people who teach this sort of technique are among the best dancers in the country.

I confess it's not an improvisation method that I particularly enjoy - I prefer improvisations that are more of a shared experience, rather than the 'your turn-my turn' variety. That said - if I have 'handed over' the initiative to my partner, I want to be able to support her in anything she does, which can, for some followers, easily include some fairly heavy tension & compression - so that way of passing over / back the lead doesn't really work for me.

I've probably not described it at it's best; it certainly isn't your turn-my turn. Compression and tension are basically opposing forces; you don't have them both together. Support should be provided by the frame, which is completely independent of both. I can live without the tension and compression in a follow, but if they have no frame I find it much harder to dance with them and much harder to know what they're doing.

[bigdjiver]

Aaaaaaaah - young Padawan - learn to turn away from these base earthly feelings you must. Only then your spirit free to eternity and beyond will soar, and the Dance Force truly yours shall be.

but is that really better than a good snog?

Hell yes!

I think we are seeing, yet again, that training from the best amatuers is no match for paid training from accredited professionals.