What is Modern Jive and how does it compare to WCS?

[straycat]

No, I agree, I'd love to hear more...

Especially as I subscribed to the "there is no set footwork* in Modern Jive" school of philosophy...

* Which doesn't imply "no footwork" or that some patterns or figures can benefit (very occasionally) from a change in footwork...

I can see a seed of doubt. My work here is done. Thank you Robert Winter for helping plant that seed

So are you suggesting that stepping on every beat is superior to playing with footwork? I'm not entirely clear on what you're implying here.

[Andy McGregor]

So are you suggesting that stepping on every beat is superior to playing with footwork? I'm not entirely clear on what you're implying here.

What I'm suggesting is that there is a basic footwork in MJ. There are footwork variations. Franck seems to love the variations. But you can only vary something once you have a basic. I've given up telling you what the basic is in MJ and now leave it to you to make the observation.

[Andy McGregor]

So are you suggesting that stepping on every beat is superior to playing with footwork?

And my opinion is that there is no place for the word "superior" in social dancing. As soon as you start to use this word there is an implied "inferior" and that judgement is the antithesis of social.

[Franck]

What I'm suggesting is that there is a basic footwork in MJ. There are footwork variations. Franck seems to love the variations. But you can only vary something once you have a basic. I've given up telling you what the basic is in MJ and now leave it to you to make the observation.

I said there was no 'set footwork', not no basic footwork. There are different ways to have basic footwork, and of all the different MJ classes out there, none seem to agree on which version to choose, except Ceroc, who teach that a set pattern of footwork at the basic level is neither necessary, nor helpful.

MJ is a very free dance, most leaders have their own interpretation and way of leading, leaving followers to cope the best they can. Telling a follower which foot she should be on, when her leader is somehow placing her on the other foot, is only going to confuse her further as a beginner...

Aaaah, feels just like old days

[Andy McGregor]

I said there was no 'set footwork', not no basic footwork. There are different ways to have basic footwork, and of all the different MJ classes out there, none seem to agree on which version to choose, except Ceroc, who teach that a set pattern of footwork at the basic level is neither necessary, nor helpful.

MJ is a very free dance, most leaders have their own interpretation and way of leading, leaving followers to cope the best they can. Telling a follower which foot she should be on, when her leader is somehow placing her on the other foot, is only going to confuse her further as a beginner...

Aaaah, feels just like old days

Franck, you need to find the dance path. You will only find that path by watching others jive to the music. Within their movements you will find enlightenment. But only if you listen to the music. Watching Ceroc teachers moving when there is no music will not show you the dance path - you might think you have seen the path, but it is not a path of dance, it is a commercial path.

Still think it's like old days?

[straycat]

And my opinion is that there is no place for the word "superior" in social dancing. As soon as you start to use this word there is an implied "inferior" and that judgement is the antithesis of social.

Soooo - to take an extreme example, in your book, a perfectly connected gentle clear lead is not superior to a painful arm-wrenching lead?

[straycat]

Franck, you need to find the dance path. You will only find that path by watching others jive to the music. Within their movements you will find enlightenment. But only if you listen to the music. Watching Ceroc teachers moving when there is no music will not show you the dance path - you might think you have seen the path, but it is not a path of dance, it is a commercial path.

Still think it's like old days?

Would someone please contact Andy, and tell him that Gadget has hijacked his forum account?

[Andy McGregor]

Soooo - to take an extreme example, in your book, a perfectly connected gentle clear lead is not superior to a painful arm-wrenching lead?

Ahh, badly taught dancers. Badly served by self-taught, sub-standard teachers. When it comes to dance teachers feel free to think the word "inferior". But a dance teacher must not speak a word against particular dance teachers. I'm happy to criticise bad teaching methods and dance teaching which results in dancers who do not know the difference between dances. There's a mind-set "my Modern Jive is West Coast Swing - this makes me a better Modern Jiver" - It doesn't, it makes you a bad Westie!

Those badly taught dancers have been badly served by their dance teachers. They deserve our support, not the label "inferior".

We dance because we love to dance. All dancing is good, some is better. But nobody is superior because no dancer is inferior. In this respect, dancing is like sex - what's the worst sex you've ever had?



... fantastic!

[Andy McGregor]

Would someone please contact Andy, and tell him that Gadget has hijacked his forum account?

What happened to Gadget? I vaguely remember he was being criticised for his music selections. He seemed to lead the decline of this forum

[Franck]

Franck, you need to find the dance path. You will only find that path by watching others jive to the music. Within their movements you will find enlightenment. But only if you listen to the music. Watching Ceroc teachers moving when there is no music will not show you the dance path - you might think you have seen the path, but it is not a path of dance, it is a commercial path.

No idea what you're on about Andy, so, yes, very much like the old days... I tried to explain my position with examples and all I get is weird mystical claptrap in return...

Ahh, badly taught dancers. Badly served by self-taught, sub-standard teachers. When it comes to dance teachers feel free to think the word "inferior". But a dance teacher must not speak a word against particular dance teachers. I'm happy to criticise bad teaching methods and dance teaching which results in dancers who do not know the difference between dances. There's a mind-set "my Modern Jive is West Coast Swing - this makes me a better Modern Jiver" - It doesn't, it makes you a bad Westie!

Those badly taught dancers have been badly served by their dance teachers. They deserve our support, not the label "inferior".

We dance because we love to dance. All dancing is good, some is better. But nobody is superior because no dancer is inferior. In this respect, dancing is like sex - what's the worst sex you've ever had?



... fantastic!

The word inferior wasn't used at all by Straycat, he asked if "stepping on every beat" was superior to "playing with footwork", it was neither a criticism against teachers nor dancers. Fine if you don't want to answer the question, but a bit off to put words in his mouth and then move the goalposts to a new 'strawman' argument.

So are you suggesting that stepping on every beat is superior to playing with footwork? I'm not entirely clear on what you're implying here.

[NZ Monkey]

Fine if you don't want to answer the question, but a bit off to put words in his mouth and then move the goalposts to a new 'strawman' argument.

What, after all these years, leads you to think Andy might stop using that particular tactic just because he gets called out on it?

[Franck]

What, after all these years, leads you to think Andy might stop using that particular tactic just because he gets called out on it?

Triumph of optimism over experience, I guess...

[Andy McGregor]

No idea what you're on about Andy, so, yes, very much like the old days... I tried to explain my position with examples and all I get is weird mystical claptrap in return...

I've tried and failed with evidence. I've tried and failed with logic. I've even tried endless repetition. I've tried to use the clip which starts this thread as is supports my cause but it makes no difference

All failed. So I thought I'd give claptrap a go - seems to work for a lot of people

The word inferior wasn't used at all by Straycat, he asked if "stepping on every beat" was superior to "playing with footwork", it was neither a criticism against teachers nor dancers. Fine if you don't want to answer the question, but a bit off to put words in his mouth and then move the goalposts to a new 'strawman' argument.

I think Mr Stray used the word "superior". This is a relative term and must, by it's nature relate to something it is above. You can not be superior to nothing. Therefore you must be superior to something and that something has to be inferior.

[Andy McGregor]

What, after all these years, leads you to think Andy might stop using that particular tactic just because he gets called out on it?

I don't think I was using a "tactic" at all. I was simply, in a Mr Spock way, applying logic. And, just like our Vulcan friend, I got an emotional reaction.

[straycat]

Those badly taught dancers have been badly served by their dance teachers. They deserve our support, not the label "inferior".

But I didn't label any dancers as inferior. I'm not even talking about which dance is superior/inferior* - I was talking about technique, and asserting that some techniques are superior to others. I'll happily stand by that assertion.


*Lindy hop, obviously

[straycat]

There's a mind-set "my Modern Jive is West Coast Swing - this makes me a better Modern Jiver" - It doesn't, it makes you a bad Westie!

I suspect that the westies would call such a person a jiver...

what's the worst sex you've ever had?

... fantastic!

You might be surprised by how many people fail to share this viewpoint...

[Andy McGregor]

But I didn't label any dancers as inferior. I'm not even talking about which dance is superior/inferior* - I was talking about technique, and asserting that some techniques are superior to others.

I wasn't doing something as mundane as talking about dance technique. I am arguing semantics. I refer you to my earlier answer regarding the requirement for something superior to have a corresponding inferior.

I prefer the use of good. Everyone can be good and it takes away ranking, scoring and judging some people to be better than others in a social setting. If you take the other road where you look for superior you might as well start to talk about people being less worthy because they are less good looking.

[Andy McGregor]

You might be surprised by how many people fail to share this viewpoint...

I've heard some women talk about bad sex but not any men I've spoken with. The worst sex a guy gets is still sex - yippee, I'm having sex! Although it sometimes takes longer to say "yippee"

I think we should take the view that the worst dance is still a dance and therefore good - YIPPEE!

And, to get back on topic. Are Stray and Franck saying that Robert Winter is wrong? Robert is making it very clear what he thinks is and isn't MJ. I think Robert is right and the dance he calls MJ is a dance I would call MJ. The "off beat" dance Robert demonstrates as not MJ is also not MJ as far as I'm concerned - but does that off-beat dance fall within Franck's broad church of MJ?

[Franck]

And, to get back on topic. Are Stray and Franck saying that Robert Winter is wrong? Robert is making it very clear what he thinks is and isn't MJ. I think Robert is right and the dance he calls MJ is a dance I would call MJ. The "off beat" dance Robert demonstrates as not MJ is also not MJ as far as I'm concerned - but does that off-beat dance fall within Franck's broad church of MJ?

I'm not saying anything of the sort.
I'm saying that claiming 'One true way' for footwork is wrong. As I've explained twice already (in this thread, and countless times on this forum).
The only reason we are in disagreement, is because you claim that your teaching of footwork is the best, a fact that has been demonstrated false. Not that it is wrong, but claiming it should be the only way is certainly mistaken, arrogant and ultimately counter productive to the development of MJ and improvement of dancers.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Nothing changes