MJ critique class: would you?

[Yogi_Bear]

Great idea ! Also a very valid point about the MJ culture. I think the reconciliation can be done in the monitoring of the format and the way the feedback is offered. Not so different from many feedback mechanisms in the corporate environment.

The way I would do it:
- Definitely a workshop format in a weekender rather than a lesson. Suggestion:
x First session: 2 hours on the Saturday morning / early afternoon
x Second session: 1.5 hour on the Sunday afternoon

First session:
==========
1- Groups of 5 couples working with each other, teacher monitors the process and moves from one group to the other
2- Each person performs 1 min of freestyle with 2 other partners
3- Use a + / Delta format: tell people what you like, and what you would do differently (vs what you're doing "wrong") and how you would do it
4- At the end of their review, each member of the couple individually agrees to work on 3 things during the rest of the week-end

Second session:
============
1- One single group with all couples
2- Each couple dances for 2 minutes
3- Anonymous feedback with another "plus-delta" from the whole class
4- Snowball teambuilding type of dance to put everyone back together

- Possibly use anonymous feeback written on paper that the couple receives, shares and analyses. This element would adrress the MJ cultural element where

I would actually enjoy managing such an exercise or going through it, I think !

I would be keen to take part - good of you to offer to manage it! At the next weekender......

[Flat_Eric]

At the next weekender......

Shame I don't do them...unless Ceroc book me.

Design workshops is part of what I do for a living, and I must confess that I have sometimes thought of what format would be the best to get dancers to go to the next level. To me, the one class which that would make a difference would have to do with character building in the dance, using the Stanislavky (Actor's Studio) method.

This one would definitely kick arse and is not that hard to design...Maybe one day....

[Clueless]

Shame I don't do them...unless Ceroc book me.

Design workshops is part of what I do for a living, and I must confess that I have sometimes thought of what format would be the best to get dancers to go to the next level. To me, the one class which that would make a difference would have to do with character building in the dance, using the Stanislavky (Actor's Studio) method.

This one would definitely kick arse and is not that hard to design...Maybe one day....

Why not incorporate it into a style workshop of andvance intermediate workshop and say what is hapening at the beginning and give the participants the option if they want to join in or not?

[Flat_Eric]

Why not incorporate it into a style workshop of andvance intermediate workshop and say what is hapening at the beginning and give the participants the option if they want to join in or not?

Possible, provided that:
- On the logistics side, appropriate pace of teaching is used. Some elements would need delayed, "infused" learning

- On the personal side, attendees are ready to get close and personal with their inner self. Not so obvious an assumption to make, given that, beyond the glitter of their dancing, people generally prefer to keep things private.


"Style" workshops sound to me as "skills" workshop, something that can be learned without any alteration to who you are as aperson. What I am talking about would, more often than not, induce serious introspection. Not sure that would be appropriate for something as light as MJ...

[Lee Bartholomew]

Could it not be done by vid clip and forum?

Should get a new thread going on it. Maybe Ill get filming this weekend.

[David Bailey]

Could it not be done by vid clip and forum?

Should get a new thread going on it. Maybe Ill get filming this weekend.

Funny, I was thinking exactly that - based on your posting the vidclip, of course.

We could maybe create a "critique area" or something, where we could post our opinions of clips - that way, people wouldn't have to make notes or anything, and they could update clips, ask for opinions on a continuous basis and so on.

It's not as good as a professional critique session of course, but it's much easier to organise, especially as we're all so spread-out geographically.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Funny, I was thinking exactly that - based on your posting the vidclip, of course.

{snip}

Ah at last something positive comes from my spinning

[Flat_Eric]

Funny, I was thinking exactly that - based on your posting the vidclip, of course.

Grat idea, great format, definitely deserves a place here with a Youtube plugin. Only risk is to get your MJ too "cerockised" and not personal enough. Still a risk worth taking I think.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Im happy to kick things off with a vid, but will have to wait untill weekend and I find a willing partner.

[Flat_Eric]

Could it not be done by vid clip and forum?

You just gave me a great idea !!!

[Alan Doyle]

Following discussions on this thread, it begged the question whether or not people would be ready for a critique class in ML/Ceroc (see definition in the linked thread).

So... let's see if there's any taker?

I'd give a critique if anyone wants one

[jivecat]

Although I can understand why people often feel this way, it seems to me that dancing is a public activity anyway and that most of the people who dance with you will form opinions of your dancing regardless.

Maybe I’m a masochist but I’d rather hear those opinions, especially if it’s about technique and from someone with significant experience.

I've voted for the first option on the poll as I've always tried to work on pushing my dancing on (not that it's done me much good), but having read the thread I think I've changed my mind.

I'd be happy about hearing private feedback (I won't use the word "criticism", far too negative) from a teacher I knew and respected, in a small group situation.

I'd be less happy about receiving public feedback in a large group situation.

I'd be less happy about receiving peer feedback in a group situation. I was at the above-mentioned Scarborough Aussie workshop, and it was good, and very well-managed by the teachers but I don't know how useful it was and some of my partners seemed uncomfortable with it as well. I just don't feel comfortable telling a dance partner that they need to change - to be honest, I'd rather just dance with someone else. However, I'd certainly try to help if directly asked. I'm not sure if I could accept criticism easily unless I trusted and respected my dance partner, both emotionally and professionally.

I'd be very unhappy if there was public criticism from a large public group, even worse if non-participators were allowed to comment.

I think criticism you've paid for from a trained professional is the most worthwhile sort as they should know what to look for and how to achieve it. Peer feedback has its place but can't really supply that.

[DavidB]

How about a workshop where you can anonymously criticise everyone else?

• Get 10 couples in a class. Each dancer has a number on their back (as in a competition)
• You dance with someone for 2 different tracks, one slow, one faster, and different styles (like competitions are supposed to do).
• After dancing with them, you fill in a sheet with marks out of 10 for various criteria (musicality, connection, content, execution etc). You can also add comments. They also get to mark you.
• The sheets all get collated, and you get the results of what everyone thought of you. This feedback would show your individual strengths and weaknesses, and also how you compared with everyone else in each criteria. You would also see the comments. However you wouldn't see who said what, or who gave you what marks.
• You could have one or more teaching couples in the rotation, with the difference being that you see their marks.

I think 10 couples would work, so you get to dance with and mark 9 other dancers in an hour. The results would be available later in the day.

(I may have suggested this before, but nothing ever came of it.)

[frodo]

...
I'd be less happy about receiving public feedback in a large group situation....

I wouldn't have a problem with the large group as such, but would prefer it was a group of people I didn't know and wasn't likely to cross paths much with.

...
[*]The sheets all get collated, and you get the results of what everyone thought of you. This feedback would show your individual strengths and weaknesses, and also how you compared with everyone else in each criteria. You would also see the comments. However you wouldn't see who said what, or who gave you what marks...

Sounds like an elegant solution.

It would be good to know the average mark each marker gave out for each category (that might be implicit).

[Phil_dB]

Interesting thread.

I would take part in such an exercise.

My view of it would be: A: To give me an overview of what people thought of my dancing & what I need to improve upon (& would hope for suggestions of how). B: (hopefully (unless the comments were that bad!)) a bit of fun.

A lot would depend on who exactly is in the group of participants. I value some peoples words of advice much higher than others.

If you’re dancing with people much more advanced than yourself, then you would probably benefit from lots of advice of where you’re going wrong, and ways you can improve (as they’ve probably been-there-done-that). If you’re much more advanced than others than all your critique will probably be extremely complimentary, but not much help to you in terms of progressing forward.

I reckon that most people have a rough overview of how others view their dancing based on a collation of the brief exchanges of words after dozens upon dozens of dances, more detailed feedback from closer dance friends, conversations with teachers, etc, - anyway.

I'm of the current belief that to discover your strengths/weakness in detail, and to receive constructive advice on how to progress forward (in detail) would probably come from private tuition from a dance teacher who's style of dancing you like (who is also a good teacher).

Another alternative possible solution (closer to the idea on this thread, & one i've not yet seen here) - is to post up a video of yourself dancing, - and ask everyone on this forum to offer their constructive criticism

[emmylou25]

I'd be happy about hearing private feedback (I won't use the word "criticism", far too negative) from a teacher I knew and respected, in a small group situation.

I'd be less happy about receiving public feedback in a large group situation.

I'm with Jivecat on this.

I haven't answered the poll as I'd be happy to be videoed and critiqued but wouldn't necessarily want this from a general random group of people. As dancing is subjective, if I don't rate the critiquer's style or technique, why would i want to hear what they say about my dancing? I've seen myself dancing on video and I think I get a lot of benefit from this because i can see a lot of the things I'd want to work on. For me this would be more valuable and then to work with an expert/teacher on how to improve on those things.

Giving feedback, I have quite set views about certain people I see dancing in terms of what I think they do/dont' have in style/musicality/technique etc. But I'm not a teacher or expert, and therefore unless someone specifically asks my view on a particular point, I'd not offer my view as they might not want it or value my opinion. Obviously if I'm asked, I'm quite happy to give advice in terms of how to work on certain things, because that person has asked me and they must value my opinion.

I think it would only work if everyone in the room respected everyone else's dancing/views.

[Andy Razzle]

A group assessment is difficult, as everyone has a different opinion on how to interpret the music, ie blues dancers are very different to dance with than others so they look for different qualities in a partners dance style.
Also if the feedback is purely on how it is to dance with someone you wont get the feedback on the visual aspect, which for me is one of the main aims.
I personally have had comments from other dancers on followers saying how good someone is, and not agreed!! so Id say lead and follow is much more subjective. most of the best for me are light but I have come across very good dancers who are much heavier! and also danced with one of the top dancers who I found light but compared notes with another leader who commented on how she was heavy!?

On style and elegance the ultimate feedback for me is via video.

[todd]

As dancing is subjective, if I don't rate the critiquer's style or technique, why would i want to hear what they say about my dancing?

I kind of like the idea of posting up a video to get feedback. I do take Emmy's point though that if the Critiquer's style is poles apart from mine (IE not want I'd want from my own dance) then I'd be less inclined to take any notice. Having said that - just because the styles might be a lot different doesn't mean that someone couldn't offer useful advice...

Perhaps the video idea would work if you could post feedback only if you have already posted your own video clip. That way anyone reading feedback about themselves could, if they wanted to, view the critiquer dancing and make up their own mind what to think of the feedback..?

[Gus]

How about a workshop where you can anonymously criticise everyone else?

I remember on a Blitz instructor training day we all got to give feedback (non-anonymously). It was really useful ... though some of the instructors were less than happy by what wasn't said rather than what was said.

I think its a great idea ... but I would guarantee there would be tears before bedtime no matter how carefully the message was delivered

[Gerry]

I remember on a Blitz instructor training day we all got to give feedback (non-anonymously). It was really useful ... though some of the instructors were less than happy by what wasn't said rather than what was said.

I think its a great idea ... but I would guarantee there would be tears before bedtime no matter how carefully the message was delivered

I have had many WCS private lessons / tennis coaching, you need to respect you teacher and remember to take the feed back as constructive critism. Nobody is perfect and we are all able to improve its just that some of us need more improving / help than others.

I know in my own mind that I am not a real dancer, more a move monster. In the immortal words of Jordan, there's nothing wrong with that, you just need to do the right move at the right time