Learning plan for dancing

[JiveLad]

Personally I use the classes to practice stuff and the free-style to dance... ocasionally inserting some of the practiced stuff into it.

As to what to practice...
Improving my dancing (an old thread of mine)
What are you working on? (another quite old one, but not by me & with more input from other people)

This is good stuff..........and leads me to something I have been meaning to ask, which is, how often you request feedback from a dance partner?

I remember doing it about 3-4 times -which involved discussions over several minutes..........I found them very helpful - and one of the best ways to learn especially on style.

[the whale]

Three points:
- If you'll look up at the area, you'll notice that this is the Intermediates corner, not the Beginners' corner. So I'm not talking about "learning from scratch", I'm talking about self-improvement.
- I don't care how many people do MJ, I'm not at all involved in the business. Their retention rate is none of my business. I'm trying to improve my dancing.
- Partner dancing is hard. It's not an easy discipline to master, it takes effort, skill and determination to progress beyond a certain point. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying, there's no "easy route".

DJ

Sorry to hijack your intermediate thread with my poor attempt at beginner humour

For what it's worth and using my experiences with another learned skill, the main ingredient is practice and then some more practice. But... it must be correct practice, otherwise incorrect practice may become a bad habit and may become ingrained. Use teachers, taxis, peer group (anyone willing to help with sufficient knowledge) to give you honest feedback. If possible, watch yourself on video (or whatever media you youngsters use nowadays!).

Yes it is hard to master a skill, but if it was easy, would you be interested?

D

[Lynn]

OK, let's put it this way - if you wanted to learn, say, Spanish, what would be your best method:

• Wander along to random Spanish classes, at random intervals, and gab in Spanish with other learners?

I've been going wrong all along then, that's more or less exactly how I learnt MJ. Yeah, its different for followers and I also read and posted a lot on here so was working stuff out as I went along.

'Fraid I'm going to be boring and say I haven't any special tips as I've found that what I need to learn and how I learn it varies a lot between dance styles and availability of opportunities to attend classes/practice.

With AT for example I select something to work on, focus on that, then add something else, work on that and the first thing etc. A layering approach. As my brain begins to deal with one concept, I can add another, but I'm still working on the first as well, its just not taking up as much brain space. And when social dancing I forget about learning and just aim to flow, hoping that some of the things I've learnt start to come more naturally in my dancing.

With WCS I'm learning via DVD and dancing with people who are more experienced. Something I've learned (eg basic footwork) becomes more natural so I don't have to work on it as much and can focus on something else - more of a building approach. And yes I strongly feel a need for feedback in this dance style so that I don't fall into bad habits. So I'm more inclined to be thinking about what I'm learning as I'm social dancing.

I need to set myself realistic goals, based on how often I can attend classes/engage in social dancing/practice with a partner.

But always, revision of basics is useful.

[MartinHarper]

It takes effort, skill and determination to progress beyond a certain point.

Where is that certain point? Could you describe the dancing of someone who is stuck at that certain point?

Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying, there's no "easy route".

FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 1.6

How to learn to dance

1. Learn a few core patterns and some basic things about dance frame.
2. Now concentrate on technique, technique, technique, + leading and following (This definitely requires private coaching.) Do this at any pace comfortable to you. Most beginners concentrate on patterns. This leads to frustration and dance partners arguing and fighting with each other. If you instead concentrate on technique, you will focus more on dancing well *yourself*, instead of casting blame on your *partner*. The better your technique, the more dancing pleasure you will give to your dance partner.
3. Then go back to learning more patterns. You will find it very easy to pick up new patterns.
4. Now observe those people who started learning about when you did, but concentrated on patterns and neglected technique. You will notice they are *still* trying to learn the same patterns you saw them learning a year ago.

My emphasis.
All lies?

[jivecat]

First approach was to muddle along. As soon as I got sufficiently sorted out to realise which bits I was particularly bad at - like spinning - I worked on them consciously, and things improved.

This approach still works but it has got harder for me to work out what I should learn next as I'm stuck with my own bad habits and limitations and it's hard to see beyond them. There are ways out of this (feedback, disciplined training with a fierce teacher, videos etc) but I'm not about to take these.

There are some things you would need a supportive partner to work with as it would be very hard to work on them with random partners in freestyle. Not necessarily impossible, but focussed work with a partner could speed things up as you could pinpoint exactly what it was you wanted to learn and repeat it until you got it.

The muddle-along approach is fine and fun for social dancing but the people who show most improvement have usually put in quite a bit of effort along the way and have not just sat back and waited for it to happen.

[David Bailey]

Where is that certain point? Could you describe the dancing of someone who is stuck at that certain point?

There. Right there. Left a bit, no, right .... ahhh. Got it. Now... scratch

My emphasis.
All lies?

Nope - but note that nowhere does it say that learning technique or having private coaching is easy - it just states that learning patterns is a piece of p!ss if you've got technique. Technique is hard; form is much simpler.

[spindr]

Basic plan:

0). Go to class 1, from organisation A -- learn stuff. Try to dance stuff.

This will teach you moves from organisation A.

-------------

Enhanced plan:

0). Go to class 1, from organisation A -- learn stuff. Try to dance stuff.

1). Go to class 2, from organisation B -- learn stuff. Try to dance stuff. Try to dance stuff from previous class #1.

2). Go to class 1, from organisation A -- learn stuff. Try to dance stuff. Try to dance stuff from previous class #2. Go to step 1.

This will teach you which moves from organisation A you can lead/follow, and which moves from organisation B you can lead/follow.

--------------

Add more classes and organisations until bored

SpinDr

[Ghost]

A more organised person's plan (insanely good dancer though )

(NB This stretches over 40 years)

Decide to learn dance.

Go to nearest venue.
Learn moves as taught, practice as shown by teacher.
Enter competitions.

Get older - decide that this isn't quite why they want
Talk to other dancers
Find better teacher

Travel to another country to train with better teacher. Teacher shows moves and concepts. Students video this and return home. Practice at their local venue

Study the history of the dance and the culture it came from. Learn to speak the language. Learn the religion. Understand the influences.

Meet up with other dancers. Swap ideas.

Study own culture

Translate to match own culture

Teach

Write books / produce videos

Open own school



So I would suggest finding the best teachers in the aspects of dance you're interested in and getting a few private lessons videoed for you to work on. I'd also study the influences that made up the dance you're interested in. Learn the language. Watch fillms. Understand the mentality that went into creating it. Then look at the ways time and your own culture has changed it. See how it's adapted in other cultures and why. Be aware of the distinction of someone teaching a dance form as taught in the original country where there may be different average height, different social mores etc and someone who's adapted it to this culture. Look at versions where people have merged the dance with other dance forms.

Also if you were going to produce the "David James how to dance xxx" dvd series, what would you need to know / improve to be at a sufficient level?

[Mythical]

Oh well, fair enough then.

Why bother with all this education lark at all, why not just let kids learn Maths from other kids, and practice it from day to day? That's bound to work.

Sorry. I imagined you were talking about adults learning. I should have known, really, shouldn't i?

Your analogy only holds any water at all if you assume that you're talking to fluent Spanish speakers, and even then it's limited to the common conversational topics and usages of those speakers. For example, you might never learn any grammatical rules,

If you're talking to fellow Spanish-learners, you'll just reenforce each others' problems.

Eventually, you'll have to write something down. I didn't say you could learn all the spanish there is to know in a week. But eventually you'd learn grammar, and more spoken spanish than common conversational topics.

If you're talking to fellow spanish learners, if you have half a brain, you'll realise you've said something wrong and speak to someone who knows better about it.

Or a DVD, for example? Oh, hold on, I must have imagined all those DVDs and "step-check" instruction booklets that Ceroc sell...

And as a converse example, imagine trying to advance past "baby-talk" level in any discipline without some structure.

Which would be pretty useless without occasional classes to wander into, and freestyle to practise at.

Three points:
- If you'll look up at the area, you'll notice that this is the Intermediates corner, not the Beginners' corner. So I'm not talking about "learning from scratch", I'm talking about self-improvement.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the "you must know everything to read this forum" on the door. I'm talking about beginners moves because I've done beginners moves - it was an example. You can try imagining learning arials from a book if that's what you want to imagine.

- I don't care how many people do MJ, I'm not at all involved in the business. Their retention rate is none of my business. I'm trying to improve my dancing.

Ok. Enjoy copying those arials from the blackboard, then.

- Partner dancing is hard. It's not an easy discipline to master, it takes effort, skill and determination to progress beyond a certain point. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying, there's no "easy route".

And Get over yourself.

[MartinHarper]

There. Right there. Left a bit, no, right .... ahhh. Got it. Now... scratch

So.... it takes effort, skill and determination to progress beyond an uncertain point?

I'm keen to know when I'm going to hit the limit of what I can achieve without effort, skill, and determination, and whether I've already hit that limit. If I have, then that's cool: I can quit going to lessons, and relax. No sense wasting time if I'm not going to progress any further.

Does the certain point involve cavorting? I've only seen two or three people who cavort properly on the dance floor. The rest of us are stuck in the pre-cavorting stage. How can we get past that certain point? Does it involve a single private lesson with Mr. Jack Daniels prior to the dance?

[David Bailey]

So.... it takes effort, skill and determination to progress beyond an uncertain point?

Err... maybe.

I'm keen to know when I'm going to hit the limit of what I can achieve without effort, skill, and determination, and whether I've already hit that limit. If I have, then that's cool: I can quit going to lessons, and relax. No sense wasting time if I'm not going to progress any further.

Ahh, that's good old-school sarcasm, that is. You youngsters, you should take note - you don't see that quality of work nowdays, what with the shoddy workmanship these newcomers show.

Seriously, it's pretty much accepted by most people that improving gets progressively harder as you go on in MJ - frankly, it's not that difficult to become a reasonably competent social dancer, and as a man that means you'll rarely have to sit out a dance if you don't want to. So you need motivation to progress beyond the "competent and in-demand" stage.

[David Bailey]

A more organised person's plan (insanely good dancer though )

Scary

Also if you were going to produce the "David James how to dance xxx" dvd series, what would you need to know / improve to be at a sufficient level?

The mind boggles...

[Gadget]

Everyone learns in different ways; Each person has a different balance using physical movement, thinking, mimicing, creating, communicating, listening, ... and a different way of retaining that information.

I find that I learn a great deal about something (or get a clearer image of it) when I try to explain it to someone else. That's why I've written lots of 'online-workshops' and try to give advice here; if someone is asking questions, then it forces you to look harder to find the answer. Even if they havn't asked the question, I use the same thing to get a firmer grip on some aspect or another.

{Eg. just now I am trying to work out the best way to explain the concept of 'frame' to a follower: in following a sage peice of advice is to follow the lead hand. It is moved by the lead and you move to follow it. But if you do this without frame, you are dragged arround as your hand, arm, shoulder, body, feet all move in a cascading action. The hand stops and the rest of the body piles into it as the arm then stops, then the shoulder, then the feet. How do I explain that the lead is trying to move the 'core' of the follower (just behind the belly button) by moving the hand? That the hand can connected to the whole body without thought?
I've been taught 'frame' stuff by some of the most respected and reveared teachers; I know what it is, I know how to apply it within my self, I know how to use my partner's frame, I know how they taught it. But how would I teach it?}

[David Bailey]

If you're talking to fellow spanish learners, if you have half a brain, you'll realise you've said something wrong and speak to someone who knows better about it.

Exactly how will you learn you've done something wrong? If you're both learning, who's to say what's "right" in sentence construction, prononciation, grammar, and so on?

Re: DVDs

Which would be pretty useless without occasional classes to wander into, and freestyle to practise at.

Exactly where did I say only use books etc. I didn't even talk about books - I'm talking about structure, organisation, planning. In fact, I'm not talking about delivery at all...

I'm sorry, I must have missed the "you must know everything to read this forum" on the door.

OK, hold on, I'll just nip out and put the sign up then

I'm talking about beginners moves because I've done beginners moves - it was an example. You can try imagining learning arials from a book if that's what you want to imagine.
...
Ok. Enjoy copying those arials from the blackboard, then.

Again with the "book", "blackboard" etc. - and again, I'm not talking about delivery.

And Get over yourself.

Next on my list.

[Terpsichorea]

best pearl of wisdom i can offer is don`t try to do too much too soon....i did 15-20 beginners classes before going to an intermediate class....make sure you master the beginners moves and are able to dance them well....and because a majority of intermediate moves are a variation of the beginners moves i now find it very easy to pick up,rip off,steal,borrow,learn new intermediate moves.....and most of all have a ball and enjoy yourself.....oh and as i`ve officially banned the word SORRY at ISH now.....don`t keep apologising....making mistakes is all part of the learning curve......

Amen, absolutely to this. I have been guilty of trying to stuff to much into my brain too soon. Learning from Ceroc DVDs is a guilty vice of mine, the problem being that you learn moves in isolation, and so don't really get the chance to practice them as much as you should with a partner. It was particularly acute last week, when a lady I was dancing with started giggling. She remarked on how serious I looked with the effort of concentration! It's probably not much fun trying to dance with someone who looks as if they're piloting a light aircraft through a thunderstorm, so I lightened up and stopped trying to remember routines I'd learned from the DVD.

Another weakness is inventing my own footwork...which isn't fair on my partner....

[David Bailey]

It was particularly acute last week, when a lady I was dancing with started giggling. She remarked on how serious I looked with the effort of concentration!

Been there, done that - I was Mr Concentration Face for the first year or two I learnt.

Another weakness is inventing my own footwork...which isn't fair on my partner....

Errr... why not? She shouldn't be following your feet.

[Terpsichorea]

Been there, done that - I was Mr Concentration Face for the first year or two I learnt.


Errr... why not? She shouldn't be following your feet.

I always feel vaguely (and this is probably wrong) that it looks a bit messy if she's not following what I'm doing. For example, if I throw in some basic Salsa footwork, or a modification of it, it feels like it spoils the symmetry of the dance if she doesn't follow, or worse, looks flummoxed by it.

I am learning not to frown with concentration....but it takes time!

[David Bailey]

I always feel vaguely (and this is probably wrong) that it looks a bit messy if she's not following what I'm doing.

"Following" is not "mirroring"

[Terpsichorea]

"Following" is not "mirroring"

Nice distinction!

[Lynn]

I probably should be more structured in my learning, to be honest its been more dominated by availability of resources - in particular classes and access to teachers - than any set plan.

So say I decide I want to work on something - if there are no classes or teachers available locally, I have to wait til I have the opportunity to do a workshop/private when a teacher is here or I am away.

I guess that has shaped my learning plans more than anything else. And I don't see any way round it, I can't afford to travel to somewhere simply to attend one workshop or have one private.

Its got me thinking though. I had rough dance goals for this year, start to learn WCS and get a practice partner - and am making gradual progress with both of those. I guess I should try to have a more focused learning plan.