Rotation V Slot

[Andy McGregor]

I think that neglecting basic spinning technique will adversely affect your dancing -- you'll be likely to fall out of the spin. This means that if you are dancing a slotted style, then you've just caused the slot to move -- which isn't normally the done thing. I think you'll find that your slotted dancing style will improve if you concentrate on the basics -- if that bothers you

SpinDr

I agree with this. Spinning is a very different skill from being returned on the spot and requires much more practice. My objection to returns on the spot is that they are done far too often. It's a bit like overpunctuating a letter or saying "you know" or "um" in every sentence. Besides, I don't think that overdoing turns and returns on the spot is relevant to the debate about slotted moves or circular moves.

What I think is that there are some moves which are definitely slotted and there are some moves which are circular. What is see on many dance floors is slotted moves done with the lady rotating around the guy. Maybe this is a rotating slot, however, when I see it the guy is usually making no effort to step out of the lady's way. The lady is being diverted into dancing in a circle around the guy because the guy is standing in her slot, oblivious to the fact he's in the way. The result is that the guy stands in the middle of a circle, with the lady popping out to the curcumference in many different directions. I suppose this is neither circular or slotted, it's untidy. And, untidy dancing is what I don't like to see.

[Mean Jean]

One of the things that confused me when I started, was that in the lesson we all line up in rows and dance in a slot (as far as I know this is how all the Ceroc teachers also teach it).

And then as soon as we go into freestyle everybody dances round in circles??????

It was a bit different when I went to a Lindy workshop with Simon Selmon, as he taught in a circle and the slot didn't seem to matter so much.

[Andy McGregor]

It was a bit different when I went to a Lindy workshop with Simon Selmon, as he taught in a circle and the slot didn't seem to matter so much.

Of course Lindy Hop is a different dance with its own rules. Those rules are irrelevant to Modern Jive.

[spindr]

One of the things that confused me when I started, was that in the lesson we all line up in rows and dance in a slot (as far as I know this is how all the Ceroc teachers also teach it).

And then as soon as we go into freestyle everybody dances round in circles??????

If the teacher doens't explain that the leader should get out of the follower's way (off of the slot / off of the follower's line) -- then they aren't teaching a slotted style.

When it comes to freestyle the leaders will do what they've been taught and won't get out of the follower's way -- and you'll start to circle -- not that there's anything wrong with that

SpinDr

[TA Guy]

There are moves in both MJ and WCS that 'rotate' but still using the slot - the follower still starts and ends up at the end of the slot.

It is very commom for ladies to wander when they are spinning - quite a lot are not taught how to avoid this, or are just simply not aware that they are doing it. In the Ceroc workshops it is often very apparent that quite a few guys can't keep themselves in a straight line, let alone lead their ladies in a straight line - the concept seems completely alien even though a move taught specifically leads the lady from one end of a slot to the other.

Most of the time, when I dance in heavy rotation it is driven by the follower. I have tried, about two or three times, to keep a heavy rotating follower in the slot. It's very hard, and I gave up each time in pretty short order.

And to be honest, while some may think those dances may not look as good, that is not particularly important to me (I don't enter comps). Can't say they feel any worse or anything. I am quite happy dancing in rotation, a slot is not a requirement of a MJ dance feeling good or being enjoyed for me

I've certainly no predisposed idealism about having to dance MJ in a slot.

Unlike WCS.
That's the difference really. With a one handed walkaround, it is not wrong in MJ (as far as I know) to exit the rotation after three quarters of a turn and end up at 90 degrees to the original slot.... and to repeat that with whatever moves you want as many times as you want. Whereas in WCS, you are breaking the rules of the dance.

Viva la difference.

[Andy McGregor]

When it comes to freestyle the leaders will do what they've been taught and won't get out of the follower's way -- and you'll start to circle -- not that there's anything wrong with that

SpinDr

Apart from the space it takes up.

IMHO the dance that is circular because the guy gets in the lady's way is too random to be safe. The guy hasn't really got much control over where the lady goes when she avoids him. The leader is in charge and he's to blame if it all goes wrong. But he's not really in control over which part of the circumference the lady will aim for when she bounces off him like a badly aimed cue ball.

The only option if you'd like to lead the lady is to know where you're leading her to. If you're just getting in her way but leading her past you have only got partial control and this will increase the chances of a collision on a social dance floor. I think you should have a clear idea of where your partner is going to end up and using a slot for a passing or cross-body lead is the solution, IMHO.

On a different subject (touched upon by TA Guy), I see no reason why you can't rotate your slot ( ). If you have a slot going East-West and somebody gets in the way you can easily rotate your slot through ninety degrees to have it going North-South. It's still a slot. And it doesn't have to be ninety degrees. You could see it as the spokes on a bicycle wheel, you can send them up and down the spokes, spinning the wheel every once in a while to send them down a different spoke. When you do a circular move you forget all about the spokes, and then you re-establish the slot for the next slotted move and send them back down your chosen spoke. What could be simpler?

[Martin]

I *think* CMJ Australia teach a slotted style explicitly from day one so it'd be interesting to hear what one of their dances has to say on the rotation issue.....

Not sure on CMJ in the last 2 years, but I have frequented the other Sydney based and Australia based companies.

Lessons still the same, some rotation, some slot. As it always has been.

With the influence of WCS on the more advanced dancers, I have been dancing more "slotted" just to bring a smile to the face of the girlies who think I am doing WCS (whereas I am just allowing them to do thier thing) - just the same as I would with a Tango girl, push me chest out, create a frame and have attitude... off she goes...

[MartinHarper]

What do we mean by "slotted"?

Some folks mean always starting and finishing each move with a certain orientation. If I include rotating moves in my dance, such as a Cleaver Walk-around, then it's kinda arbitrary to constrain those moves to always finish in a certain orientation, unless the audience is all in the same place. Sure, it can be done, but it's kinda hard work, for little benefit.

On the other hand, change-of-places type moves: travelling return, octopus, etc, I think look aesthetically neater if the dancers keep the same orientation, with the follower moving in a straight line. To achieve this, the leader has to move a bit, as Andy has eloquently described.

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The other thing folks might mean by "slotted dancing" is a WCS-style of dancing whereby, at a beginner level:

1. Leaders get off the slot when the follower is passing them.
2. Leaders stay in the slot when the follower is not passing them.
3. Followers stay in the slot all the time.

This is lead/follow-incompatible with regular Modern Jive, and I don't know anyone who teaches Modern Jive in this style.

There are moves in both MJ and WCS that 'rotate' but still using the slot - the follower still starts and ends up at the end of the slot.

What would be a good example of this kind of WCS move?

[Andy McGregor]

To achieve this, the leader has to move a bit, as Andy has eloquently described.

Go on, face your fear. You fancy me, don't fight it

[NZ Monkey]

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The other thing folks might mean by "slotted dancing" is a WCS-style of dancing whereby, at a beginner level:

1. Leaders get off the slot when the follower is passing them.
2. Leaders stay in the slot when the follower is not passing them.
3. Followers stay in the slot all the time.

This is lead/follow-incompatible with regular Modern Jive, and I don't know anyone who teaches Modern Jive in this style.

Apart from the last line that's pretty much my take on it. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that it's incompatible with MJ though. Plenty of people manage it regularly, as long as they're leading passes in a slot and the follower isn't anticipating I don't see any conflict at all.

The kind of connection you have in WCS and MJ is very different if that's what you mean, but I'm not sure it is.

What would be a good example of this kind of WCS move?

The one I'm thinking of that I know I can find in a video clip is a type of throwout at around 2:12 of YouTube - Jordan Frisbee & Tatiana Mollman in Paris 2oo6 . I don't know if this was the kind of thing Mary was thinking of but it's a good example of what I was talking about earlier.

[MartinHarper]

I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that it's incompatible with MJ though.

Suppose I'm leading regular MJ, and my partner is following slotted MJ. As soon as I attempt to lead her off-slot, she either has to ignore my lead, or she has to ignore rule three. Same goes if I lead her a rotational move such as that Cleaver Walk-around I talked about.

There's incompatibility the other way round too.

The one I'm thinking of that I know I can find in a video clip is a type of throwout at around 2:12.

Thanks.
I'd consider that an example of the rule that no rules apply to great dancers.

[purplehyacinth]

Where's the option on this poll for "whatever the leader leads - be it slot or rotation"?

[Martin]

Where's the option on this poll for "whatever the leader leads - be it slot or rotation"?

he he I no longer even try to lead advanced dancers --- I just make suggestions

[David Bailey]

Depends on the music.

[MartinHarper]

Depends on the music.

Could you expand on that?

[David Bailey]

Could you expand on that?

Yes

[David Bailey]

Could you expand on that?

Oh, OK then.

To me, it seems that some music is more naturally slotted than others - for example, Will Young's "I won't dance" is a lovely slot-music track, with lots of opportunities for travelling returns and things.

Whereas something like Bodyrocker's "I like the way you move" is where I do a lot of walkarounds, wiggling and shimmying as I go, because there aren't so many opportunities to do "moves" to fit with the music that way.

[ducasi]

I mainly dance "slotted", and not from WCS influence, though perhaps from doing workshops by Amir and Marc Forster. Both of them highlight slotted dancing, though Amir also teaches an "interesting" rotational octopus just to show it's possible.

I do some walk-around moves which don't always end back up in the same slot as before... Like DJ, I also find that some music wants more rotational stuff, but they'll be done within the context of a mainly slotted dance.

As for the WCS slot vs. MJ slot thing... Yes, it's clear to be that they are actually different (though I'd never thought about it before now.) I think this begins to explain (to me) the different style of lead required in WCS, where you only lead when you want a change of direction from the follower, and where turns and spins are often double-prep'ed.

[jockey]

I love to slot.
Maybe it was all those Nigel and Nina classes; maybe it all started with those walks that Graham Leclerc taught in Brighton; but I love the structure on the one hand and, oddly you may think to yourself, the freedom to anchor and "let play", on the other.
Of course there is the occasional pretzel when music demands but slotting does it for me. I think it helps with drops and seducers also because the lady will know more precisely where she is going down and in what direction (parallel with the slot, naturellement).
And what with WCS looming one is well placed to pick it up (it says here..).

[jockey]

Another useful effect of a slotted style is to pin down the geometry of MJ. Listening to a comment earlier on in the thread I'm reminded of how annoying and disruptive it reaaly is to have the follower popping out of the move at whatever angle, seemingly unmindful of the fact that if she comes out at SE instead of South, say, the lead often has to change the next move or do a steadying return to put the geometry right.
With slotted dancing you get better geometry, (or is it 'geography').
I find myself agreeing with Andy (gulp) - its dead easy to turn the slot thro 90 degrees to avoid trouble.