Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

[DavidY]

The "1&a2&a3&a4&a" looks to me like a triplet rhythm - ie the bit between "1" and "2" is split into 3 equal sub-beats.

So how does this work with dances (including MJ, but also Cha-Cha for instance) where the count is split into 1&2&3&4&- ie the bit between "1" and "2" is split into 2 sub-beats?

[David Franklin]

Question for David Franklin & anyone else with the knowledge:

Is there a high level programming language for movement, perhaps used in the Video games industry, that could be adapted as the basis for one specifying choreography?

What do you mean by high level? AFAIK (and it's 10 years since I was current on this), you can fairly easily set up an inverse kinematic system with a (simplified) human model, then you can position the hands, arms, etc. using a mouse (or tablet) with a computer doing a lot of the work such as making sure "the knee bone's connected to the ankle bone". I think it would still be fairly tedious though.

I know there are also "Scene Description Languages" that are somewhat tailored towards animating articulated figures (such as people), but I don't remember the names of any of them (sorry!). Last time I looked at them, I wasn't sure they actually did very much, but at the time, although I was looking for a similar dance-related purpose as you, I specifically wanted a level of physics analysis (I wanted to be able to get a better answer to those questions such as "where is the balance point in the middle of this drop?"). So I was looking for a bit more than you are I think.

[David Franklin]

Well...it would give the dance better structure, there are certain rules that apply to all partner dances (some of which modern jive does not adhere to)

the use of unit cards can allow students to learn faster.

I also believe Ceroc applied to have Modern Jive recognised for competitions from the World Swing Dance Council, but you can't judge a dance that has no structure!

This system has been defined and works for all social partner dancers (e.g. ballroom, tango, cha cha, rumba, shim sham, etc).

It's an interesting statistic that approx 80% of the people who win the competitions are trained with this system!

Another interesting fact is that you can't achieve body flight without rolling count. You need about 9 things to make it work (rolling count being one of them).

Sorry for the number of smileys - just trying out my new invention: Rolling Eye Count (*)

(*) Fifteen, innit? Which was tricky to accomplish, given the forum limits you to 6 images/smilies per post. Hardly worth it for a not very funny joke. {imagine a sad smiley here...}

[bigdjiver]

Me neither. And anyway, there's already literally dozens of notation forms, including:

• Eshkol-Wachman Movement Notation
• Benesh Movement Notation
• Laban Movement Analysis
• DanceWriting

So, I can't help thinking that of all the things we need in the world right now, another dance notation method is not high on the list.

I applaud any effort to bring structure and definition of Modern Jive. But I'm cynical as to how using one school-specific notation method can help.

One thing that is needed in the world right now is a motion description language for use by programmers of video games and other entities in motion applications. My guess is that such things exist, but how powerful and versatile they are at present I have no idea.

Without knowing anything about the various notations I would guess that they are all flawed and limited, being designed by artists rather than scientists, too personalised for proper general use. By personalised I mean that each adherent will proclaim that it is perfet for them, whilst others claim that they cannot get along with it. Similar debates occur between computer programmes, but each of the very different languages now tend to produce exactly the same result from very different sysntax.

A games programmer would want to to tell a built character to do such things as "run to the door, ducking and weaving." The language used would be precise, repeatable, and understandable by the stupidest thing in the world, a computer.

Defining what a perfect oncho was would be a major task, but once done an oncho would eventually be able to be marked by automated equipment in terms of marks out of 1000.

Stopping far short of that extreme it would be possible to define triple step in definitive terms in relation to the dance form it was being executed in.

The computer games and other simulation industries already use motion detectors on human models in action to determine how their virtual characters move. The perfect oncho and varities could be averaged from how a collection of the top dancers perform them. There could be a two way translation from language to motion and motion to language.

[ant]

Originally Posted by Straycat
It's also interesting to note how easy it is to deflect awkward questions by completely changing the subject.
......Having absolutely no idea what 'body flight' refers to .....

I was wondering if you were aware of the definition here at 2.5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_o ... ance_terms

or were you trying to apply the term to swing dance in particular.

[David Bailey]

Well...it would give the dance better structure,

Despite our comments, I suspect most of us would welcome this.

there are certain rules that apply to all partner dances (some of which modern jive does not adhere to)

I think I know what you're saying - "There are certain rules that should apply for all partner dances", yes?

, the use of unit cards can allow students to learn faster.

Personally, I think students should aim to learn slower. And better.

I also believe Ceroc applied to have Modern Jive recognised for competitions from the World Swing Dance Council,

Well it's possible.

but you can't judge a dance that has no structure!

Well you can, but I admit that consistency makes things easier.

and you can't ratify the teaching of a dance that has no structure!!

Why not?

OK, and of course I have to ask, what do you mean by "structure"?

[Alan Doyle]

Although, actually, I'm more curious to hear more about these rules that "apply to all partner dances" but "which modern jive does not adhere to".

The rules that modern jive doesn't adhere to include:

1) There is no time when the feet should not be in a correct foot position. Every pattern has correct foot positions for every step. There are approx 5 foot positions:
- 1st Foot Position: Feet Together...Heels touching. Toes slightly apart
- 2nd Foot Position: Feet Directly Apart (Side Step)
- 3rd Foot Position: Heel to instep
- 4th Foot Position: Walking Step (Forward or Back)
- 5th Foot Position: Toe to heel (Back heel released from the floor)

With only a small number of foot positions, it's not hard to define what the correct foot positions are for each pattern.

2) All Moves/Patterns (amalgamations/routines) should begin at the beginning of a phrase

3) The Centre Point of Balance (CPB) is the driving force and receiving foot, (action and reaction) that creates the look of oneness. The man's lead should be an extension of his own CPB. Leverage is not achieved by pushing, pulling, heel of the hand, fingertips etc. but by the natural movement of his own CPB

Modern Jive (from what I've seen, although I believe it's taught differently in Australia/NZ) is an arm led dance, where as it should be taught as a body led dance.

4) All dance (social dance in particular) contains some degree of vertical movement (what appears to the untrained eye horizontal movement is actually vertical movement that has been stretched out. The press into the floor that creates the body projection is the same press to move upward as it is to move outward. The degree of movement in a particular direction determines the amount of visible movement.

5) Isolate the basic movement of each dance before attempting to do the pattern.

6) All dance patterns (with exception of waltz) will consist of an even number of beats

7) Counting the beats correctly

Modern Jive counts the units not the beats (1& 2& 3& 4& is counting units or counting half time) but each unit has 2 beats so you should be counting 12 34 56 78)

8) Start the dance on the downbeat

Modern Jive starts the dance on beat 8 as a result you are dancing on the upbeat instead of dancing on the downbeat.


It's not too difficult to make some slight changes to the way modern jive is taught to fix the above.

[NZ Monkey]

I was wondering if you were aware of the definition here at 2.5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_o ... ance_terms

or were you trying to apply the term to swing dance in particular.

My understanding is that in Swing dances it usually refers to having a smooth transition between weight changes, so that if you were only looking at dancers from the waist up you would not be able to tell precisly when the weight changes were. That's a little more specific than the description in Wikipedia, because you aren't necessarily travelling while making them.

This is just my impression, as I've never heard any teachers say that effect AND call it body flight in the same sentence.

[David Franklin]

The rules that modern jive doesn't adhere to include: ~snip~

I'm sure others are going to give you a detailed rebuttal, but I'm going to go with the words of Wolfgang Pauli:

"That's not right. It's not even wrong".

This is going to sound awfully dismissive, but you're honestly not worth spending time listening to about this until you get a bit more perspective outside your very narrow world view.

[NZ Monkey]

Fortunately, it isn't late where I am and I have the energy and time to keep this up for a while.....

The rules that modern jive doesn't adhere to include:

1) There is no time when the feet should not be in a correct foot position. Every pattern has correct foot positions for every step. There are approx 5 foot positions:
- 1st Foot Position: Feet Together...Heels touching. Toes slightly apart
- 2nd Foot Position: Feet Directly Apart (Side Step)
- 3rd Foot Position: Heel to instep
- 4th Foot Position: Walking Step (Forward or Back)
- 5th Foot Position: Toe to heel (Back heel released from the floor)

With only a small number of foot positions, it's not hard to define what the correct foot positions are for each pattern.

Oh really?

OH REALLY……?

So which foot positions is Jordan transitioning through here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOdGK8mgUcA at
1.07-1.09: ( “backward” spin with a heel hook into a split weight pose on a diagonal)
1:19 (a lunge, in something resembling a press line with most of weight over the left foot)
1:24 (just what is the correct position for turning with a raised foot anyway? Presumably there’s more than one since he does it differently quite often)
1:34-1:36 (Shifting the left foot out while lowering Tatiana. It seems to me there are at least two extra positions in that transition)
1:48-1:49 (That is a ronde to be proud of!)

There’s less than a minute of a single clip from a single dancer that could be considered to be Skippy’s finest work (baring Tat of course! :wink .

I think the reality is just a little more complicated than you’d have us believe Alan. Of course, depending on how broadly you interpret 2nd and 4th position you might be able to get away with describing them as thus. Doing so makes the category so wide it’s almost meaningless however – much like have a 6th foot position called “Anything” makes the others essentially pointless.

2) All Moves/Patterns (amalgamations/routines) should begin at the beginning of a phrase

Which directly contradicts an entire class of Phrasing J&T discuss in their Musicology 2 DVD’s. For those that haven’t seen the DVD, it’s essentially making “big hits” at the first 1 of the phrase in the middle of patterns.

3) The Centre Point of Balance (CPB) is the driving force and receiving foot, (action and reaction) that creates the look of oneness. The man's lead should be an extension of his own CPB. Leverage is not achieved by pushing, pulling, heel of the hand, fingertips etc. but by the natural movement of his own CPB

I’m uncertain how the CPB can be both an object (foot – although not at the centre as you’d expect with a name like CPB), a location in the body related to the centre of mass AND a force. Would you care to enlighten me?

4) All dance (social dance in particular) contains some degree of vertical movement (what appears to the untrained eye horizontal movement is actually vertical movement that has been stretched out. The press into the floor that creates the body projection is the same press to move upward as it is to move outward. The degree of movement in a particular direction determines the amount of visible movement.

Huh?

I’m afraid this looks like random waffle to me. I have very little idea what you’re talking about here, unless you mean that a slight rise and fall is unavoidable when stepping large distances. Even if it is, I fail to see the point.

6) All dance patterns (with exception of waltz) will consist of an even number of beats

So all dance patterns to music with an even number of beats per bar have an even number of beats? Apparently the Waltz is the only dance in ¾ time…

8) Start the dance on the downbeat

Modern Jive starts the dance on beat 8 as a result you are dancing on the upbeat instead of dancing on the downbeat.

Has anyone here actually witnessed this? I know they teach it that way in Australia, but it isn’t representative of anywhere else I’ve danced. Even in Australia nobody seemed to have any trouble with my timing.

[Alan Doyle]

I'm sure others are going to give you a detailed rebuttal, but I'm going to go with the words of Wolfgang Pauli:

"That's not right. It's not even wrong".

This is going to sound awfully dismissive, but you're honestly not worth spending time listening to about this until you get a bit more perspective outside your very narrow world view.

Don't take my word for it, ask Peter Fradley & Amy Muncaster what they think about Skippy Blair's teaching...although I don't think they talked to her in as much detail as I did about modern jive.

[straycat]

Well...it would give the dance better structure, there are certain rules that apply to all partner dances (some of which modern jive does not adhere to)

The rules that modern jive doesn't adhere to include:

Well - I agree that MJ doesn't adhere to these 'rules' - I'm just a bit confused as to why these are deemed to apply to 'all partner dances'.

[David Bailey]

The rules that modern jive doesn't adhere to include:

Errr... yes. But, why should they?

Modern Jive (from what I've seen, although I believe it's taught differently in Australia/NZ) is an arm led dance, where as it should be taught as a body led dance.

Speak for yourself. Personally I lead with my centre. OK, most MJ dancers do use arm leads too much, but that's a reflection of teaching not the dance. It's completely possible to lead MJ with your centre.

4) All dance (social dance in particular) contains some degree of vertical movement (what appears to the untrained eye horizontal movement is actually vertical movement that has been stretched out. The press into the floor that creates the body projection is the same press to move upward as it is to move outward. The degree of movement in a particular direction determines the amount of visible movement.

Errr... am I thick? I don't get this....

5) Isolate the basic movement of each dance before attempting to do the pattern.

Sounds sensible.

6) All dance patterns (with exception of waltz) will consist of an even number of beats

Well, and vals. And Cajun. And most Latin dances. And.....

It's not too difficult to make some slight changes to the way modern jive is taught to fix the above.

Well, possibly - but why? Why will this help?

Well - I agree that MJ doesn't adhere to these 'rules' - I'm just a bit confused as to why these are deemed to apply to 'all partner dances'.

I can 100% guarantee they don't come close to applying to AT, in any form.

They sound (to me, with no knowledge) like a sensible-ish set of conventions for a single dance form, but that's about all. I'm willing to accept they're reasonable ground rules for WCS, or at least for 1 flavour of WCS, but they're absolutely not "Universal".

[Alan Doyle]

Fortunately, it isn't late where I am and I have the energy and time to keep this up for a while.....

Oh really?

OH REALLY……?

So which foot positions is Jordan transitioning through here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOdGK8mgUcA at
1.07-1.09: ( “backward” spin with a heel hook into a split weight pose on a diagonal)

He was doing a pivot turn to open 3rd dance position.

1:19 (a lunge, in something resembling a press line with most of weight over the left foot)

2nd dance position

1:24 (just what is the correct position for turning with a raised foot anyway? Presumably there’s more than one since he does it differently quite often)

He was turning with his raised foot in 3rd dance popsition

1:34-1:36 (Shifting the left foot out while lowering Tatiana. It seems to me there are at least two extra positions in that transition)

2nd dance position

1:48-1:49 (That is a ronde to be proud of!)

Pivot turn with a ronde to open 3rd dance position

There’s less than a minute of a single clip from a single dancer that could be considered to be Skippy’s finest work (baring Tat of course! :wink .

I think the reality is just a little more complicated than you’d have us believe Alan. Of course, depending on how broadly you interpret 2nd and 4th position you might be able to get away with describing them as thus. Doing so makes the category so wide it’s almost meaningless however – much like have a 6th foot position called “Anything” makes the others essentially pointless.

Which directly contradicts an entire class of Phrasing J&T discuss in their Musicology 2 DVD’s. For those that haven’t seen the DVD, it’s essentially making “big hits” at the first 1 of the phrase in the middle of patterns.

I haven't seen their musicology 2 DVD but I'm going to watch it and see what you're talking about. But I think what you're talking about is starting the pattern on a downbeat. it is possible to start a pattern on count 1, 3, 5 or 7. Patterns are always started on a downbeat. they may not all be started on count 1, what I meant was that the entire routine (amalgamation) should be started at the start of a phrase.

I’m uncertain how the CPB can be both an object (foot – although not at the centre as you’d expect with a name like CPB), a location in the body related to the centre of mass AND a force. Would you care to enlighten me?

Huh?

Your centre point of balance (CPB) is not a foot position it is at your solar plexus. I think what your're talking about is anchoring...Anchor is keeping the centre behind the heel of the forward foot.

I’m afraid this looks like random waffle to me. I have very little idea what you’re talking about here, unless you mean that a slight rise and fall is unavoidable when stepping large distances. Even if it is, I fail to see the point.

Using rolling count, the & count, is for moving the centre. You're either going to move it up and then in the direction you want to move or you're going to turn on the & count.

Moving the centre, moving the body, moving the foot creates 3D movement.

So all dance patterns to music with an even number of beats per bar have an even number of beats? Apparently the Waltz is the only dance in ¾ time…

That is true for all dances except for waltz (or any other dance that may use ¾ time)...to my knowledge all other dances use 4/4 time.

Has anyone here actually witnessed this? I know they teach it that way in Australia, but it isn’t representative of anywhere else I’ve danced. Even in Australia nobody seemed to have any trouble with my timing.

From talking to Peter & Amy, I know that it Modern Jive taught differently in Australia/NZ, that's why I wanted to talk to Modern Jive teachers from Australia/NZ.

[Alan Doyle]

Errr... yes. But, why should they?

Speak for yourself. Personally I lead with my centre. OK, most MJ dancers do use arm leads too much, but that's a reflection of teaching not the dance. It's completely possible to lead MJ with your centre.

Errr... am I thick? I don't get this....

Sounds sensible.

Well, and vals. And Cajun. And most Latin dances. And.....
Well, possibly - but why? Why will this help?

Yes it is possible to lead it using a body lead, that is why I say it 'should' be taught as a body led dance, but I see it more often than not taught using a arm lead but that's a reflection on the teacher.

I can 100% guarantee they don't come close to applying to AT, in any form.

They sound (to me, with no knowledge) like a sensible-ish set of conventions for a single dance form, but that's about all. I'm willing to accept they're reasonable ground rules for WCS, or at least for 1 flavour of WCS, but they're absolutely not "Universal".

They are 'Helpful Rules' but I guess they may not apply to every dance, I honestly don't even dance tango, so I suggest you ask skippy herself: Skippy@Skippyblair.com

[FirstMove]

6) All dance patterns (with exception of waltz) will consist of an even number of beats

What about 3-count hustle? It's danced to 4/4 but the basic pattern is 3 crochets long. Everything synchs up only every 3 bars

[Alan Doyle]

What about 3-count hustle? It's danced to 4/4 but the basic pattern is 3 crochets long. Everything synchs up only every 3 bars

You can dance hustle to waltz 3/4 time and you can dance it to 4/4 time the difference is how you pulse it.

You can also dance WCS to 3/4 time (using 6 beat patterns) and you can dance it to 4/4 time but the difference is how you pulse it.

[NZ Monkey]

He was doing a pivot turn to open 3rd dance position.
2nd dance position
He was turning with his raised foot in 3rd dance popsition
2nd dance position
Pivot turn with a ronde to open 3rd dance position

So now we have open and closed foot positions as well as the numbers? It also seems that finishing in a position is now enough (incidentally that was my understanding of the various foot positions before this thread anyway, but I digress)

You’ll note that this is quite different from “There is no time when the feet should not be in a correct foot position. Every pattern has correct foot positions for every step. There are approx 5 foot positions:”, which were your exact words.

I haven't seen their musicology 2 DVD but I'm going to watch it and see what you're talking about. But I think what you're talking about is starting the pattern on a downbeat. it is possible to start a pattern on count 1, 3, 5 or 7. Patterns are always started on a downbeat. they may not all be started on count 1, what I meant was that the entire routine (amalgamation) should be started at the start of a phrase.

I am most certainly not talking about starting on a downbeat. I’m talking about hitting phrase changes at points in the music other than the start of the pattern.

i.e. Hitting the first 1 of a new phrase on counts 3, 5 of 7 of a pattern. This is clearly contradictory of your previous statement “All Moves/Patterns (amalgamations/routines) should begin at the beginning of a phrase”.

Your centre point of balance (CPB) is not a foot position it is at your solar plexus. I think what you're talking about is anchoring...Anchor is keeping the centre behind the heel of the forward foot.

Funnily enough, I happen to know a few things about anchoring, and I am definitely not talking about it here.

You have stated that “The Centre Point of Balance (CPB) is the driving force and receiving foot, (action and reaction) that creates the look of oneness.”. This clearly describes what you’re talking about as both a force and an object, which I can tell you right now isn’t physically possible. I have as good an understanding of the CPB as anyone I know, and even I’m still not entirely sure why they call it that. I think you’ll find the mechanics change depending on whether you’re moving forwards or backwards however, so what you’ve written still isn’t the whole picture.

Using rolling count, the & count, is for moving the centre. You're either going to move it up and then in the direction you want to move or you're going to turn on the & count.

Again, this is highly unnatural if you’re moving backward. I think you’ll find your body (including the CPB) actually lowers in this case. Another case of misrepresentation I’m afraid. You might want to take a look at Robert Roystons Advanced Technique DVD’s for the best explanation I’ve seen on this phenomenon.

That is true for all dances except for waltz (or any other dance that may use ¾ time)...to my knowledge all other dances use 4/4 time.

So you really mean that every modern, western dance, that you know of, uses music in 4/4 time?

From talking to Peter & Amy, I know that it Modern Jive taught differently in Australia/NZ, that's why I wanted to talk to Modern Jive teachers from Australia/NZ.

From, you know, living them I know the same. Which is why I was wondering if you had any specific questions.

[ant]

The rules that modern jive doesn't adhere to include:

1) There is no time when the feet should not be in a correct foot position. Every pattern has correct foot positions for every step. There are approx 5 foot positions:
- 1st Foot Position: Feet Together...Heels touching. Toes slightly apart
- 2nd Foot Position: Feet Directly Apart (Side Step)
- 3rd Foot Position: Heel to instep
- 4th Foot Position: Walking Step (Forward or Back)
- 5th Foot Position: Toe to heel (Back heel released from the floor)

With only a small number of foot positions, it's not hard to define what the correct foot positions are for each pattern.

Surely if you are defining positions where your feet are apart (2nd,4th) then the distances (or reletive distances) need to be defined and this must add a large number of addtional positions to quantify.

Also where the feet are apart linearly (4th) are the feet in line, normal width apart or some other relative position?

and what about the Heel to toe position as in most leads in ballroom or step 2 of the three step in Waltz this has not even been included in your list.

You have not even mentioned what angle the foot should be in 2nd-5th, straight, Charlie Chaplin or more rarely Pigeon toed.

All in all there are innumeral foot positions.

2) All Moves/Patterns (amalgamations/routines) should begin at the beginning of a phrase

You have not defined a phase or when a phase begins. Until you do this how can this point have any meaning?

3) The Centre Point of Balance (CPB) is the driving force and receiving foot, (action and reaction) that creates the look of oneness. The man's lead should be an extension of his own CPB. Leverage is not achieved by pushing, pulling, heel of the hand, fingertips etc. but by the natural movement of his own CPB

Modern Jive (from what I've seen, although I believe it's taught differently in Australia/NZ) is an arm led dance, where as it should be taught as a body led dance.

I actually think this point as defined is full of terms that contradict each other and others have already commented as such.

However I think what you are talking about is absorption of and returning of energy in the weight bearing foot especially during linear directional changes. This is exactly the point Franck commented on in the current thread Floor - Connection.

In my opinion if you read that and rephrase this point with those comments in mind you will have an area that is useful and relevant to the teaching of MJ.

If not what do you mean and how is it relevant to MJ?

4) All dance (social dance in particular) contains some degree of vertical movement (what appears to the untrained eye horizontal movement is actually vertical movement that has been stretched out. The press into the floor that creates the body projection is the same press to move upward as it is to move outward. The degree of movement in a particular direction determines the amount of visible movement

.
Are you talking about vertical lift from the heel of the weight bearing foot in say Samba so the result of the horizontal step is a greater weight than would otherwise be expected, exerted on the standing (weight bearing) foot, in order to anchor the standing foot more effectively.
.
If so I believe there is room for the teaching of anchoring the relevant foot in MJ. For example in the static Mambo step where the lead would normally anchor their right foot and the follower their left.

If this is not the case, what do you mean and how would this be relevant to MJ.

5) Isolate the basic movement of each dance before attempting to do the pattern

.

What is the basic movement of MJ?

6) All dance patterns (with exception of waltz) will consist of an even number of beats

My understanding is MJ has a one beat dance pattern.

7) Counting the beats correctly

Modern Jive counts the units not the beats (1& 2& 3& 4& is counting units or counting half time) but each unit has 2 beats so you should be counting 12 34 56 78)

I agree the beats should be correctly counted.

Have you not already had this arguement with Andy McGregor?

8) Start the dance on the downbeatModern Jive starts the dance on beat 8 as a result you are dancing on the upbeat instead of dancing on the downbeat.

It's not too difficult to make some slight changes to the way modern jive is taught to fix the above

Why does it need to be fixed and how will it help things?

[NZ Monkey]

Are you talking about vertical lift from the heel of the weight bearing foot in say Samba so the result of the horizontal step is a greater weight than would otherwise be expected, exerted on the standing (weight bearing) foot, in order to anchor the standing foot more effectively.
.
If so I believe there is room for the teaching of anchoring the relevant foot in MJ. For example in the static Mambo step where the lead would normally anchor their right foot and the follower their left.

If this is not the case, what do you mean and how would this be relevant to MJ.

Anchoring in WCS is the name given to creating an elastic stretch and settling into the connection at the end of patterns. The anchor step is one of WCS’s defining features, and I’ve not seen anything quite like it in any other dances.

I think you may have missed that context in the above quote. I’m happy to proven wrong if I’ve misunderstood of course, but I think you may be talking at cross-purposes at the moment.