Smoking in the real world...

[frodo]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Hi Azande, it's great that one smoker has joined the debate.

... before there was clear evidence that passive smoking harms health.

My general impression (mainly from newspapers) was that for every study that showed a link another did not. Didn't know that things had moved on from there.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by frodo
My general impression (mainly from newspapers) was that for every study that showed a link another did not. Didn't know that things had moved on from there.

The studies that show a link between passive smoking and cancer and other diseases have been done by healthcare professionals. The studies that show no link have been done by tobacco companies. Choose who you trust.

There have been massive awards for damages in the USA for passive smoking related disease. If it wasn't proven there would have been no damages.

Even if we believed the tobacco companies spin we all know that breathing smoke gives us a dry throat and makes us cough. It gives the Tramp asthma attacks. Why should smokers expect us to put up with that? And that's not 3rd party evidence that's what we know as an absolute fact. People do not need to smoke next to dance floors - why should we let them do it to us? Don't go to classes/dances where they expect us to breathe smoke and have a nicer time - and probably live longer.

Why take a risk. We get no pleasure from passive smoking and at best suffer short term discomfort and at worst will shorten our lives - and greedy/ignorant organisers are happy to see it happen. All hail Franck for seeing the light Could you bring your franchise to Kent, please

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy
The result of the poll is what it is. To read anything else into it would be inaccurate. 56.36% of responders hate smoky dance floors and a further 12.73% don't like smoky dance floors. They didn't say they 'go even if they don't like it (or hate it)'

Well, from my understanding of English (which could be flawed since it's not my native language) I see that only 12.73% have said that they don't go to a place that allows smoking. The remaining 87.27% like it or hate it but still go to these places, which makes me think that they don't hate it so much that they don't go. I don't think I'm twisting the statistics. Maybe you should have had a poll saying:

1. I'm making a stand and will only go to a smoking venue
2. I don't like it but I still go to a smoking venue.
3. I'm making a stand and won't go anywhere near a smoky dance floor

In this way people had to be clear on what they decide regarding the subject.

Originally posted by Andy
The argument about occupational hazards is even weaker.

Can't see why. People leave their jobs and retrain for thousands of reasons and are ready to accept the consequences of it, I don't see why this particular reason should be treated as a different thing.

Originally posted by Andy
One thing that we must not forget in the whole of this debate is that we are not being compelled to smoke. People don't have to do it. There is no basic human need to smoke so smokers are not being denied their human rights when they enter a no smoking environment. But there is an argument that smokers are denying us our right to good health by expecting us to breathe their smoke while we go about our normal daily lives.

Mmmmh, yes, just like people are not compelled to go to the pub or dancing. I'm pretty sure that no one is compelled to do anything where it is inevitable for them to be in a smoky environment. We are back to the choices we make in our lives.

Originally posted by Andy
I think this means that azande and Andy will never meet.

I think you are mistaken, because I dance in Scotland where smoking is banned inside the venues and I have never said that I would only go where I can smoke. On the contrary, if I can choose between a venue where smoking is allowed and one where it isn't I would chose the latter. I was at the Edinburgh party a while ago (I think there is a thread somewher about it) where there were people smoking and as soon as I got in the room I noticed it and I didn't like it.

Originally posted by Andy
Azande, please don't make this the last rant. We need more smokers to argue their corner. Nobody expected this to be an easy journey to smoke free dance floors. On the other hand, I might argue that the change is inevitable, why fight it?

As you can see you managed to "twist my arm" and make me post again. Other smokers... I was wondering where they are... I know the change is inevitable and I'm not going to fight it, I will be a reformed smoker one day and I think we will end up like in the Star Wars movie where a guy try to sell "death sticks" to young Obi One.

Just for the record it should be clear by now that I agree that smoke free dancefloors is the way it should be!

Originally posted by Wendy
I have no problem "putting up" with him.. he's a great guy.... a great dancer and probably the most considerate smoker I have met.... he washes his hands, smokes outside etc..... jeez.. he's almost perfect !!!!

Wxxx

Wendy, you are making me blush!
Be reassured, I'm not going to start a campaign to have you banned. How could I? And as far as I can tell, you don't try to lead anymore (at least with me!).

[Andy McGregor]

On the subject of the poll you are right. If it was a different poll it would measure a different thing.

Originally posted by azande
Can't see why. People leave their jobs and retrain for thousands of reasons and are ready to accept the consequences of it, I don't see why this particular reason should be treated as a different thing.

My reasoning is that even when the people in those jobs leave the occupation and the hazard still exist. It's just that the person in that occupation that is taking the risk that changes. Some people do not have the luxury of choosing between jobs - they have to take what they can get. If we could have free choice in our careers there'd be no Traffic Wardens

Originally posted by azande
...people are not compelled to go to the pub or dancing. I'm pretty sure that no one is compelled to do anything where it is inevitable for them to be in a smoky environment. We are back to the choices we make in our lives.

You're speaking my language here - even if it is your second language. I'm saying we should avoid venues where we're expected to breathe smoke while we dance. You've already won that battle in Scotland. In my area every single Ceroc venue I've been to allows smoking

Originally posted by azande
As you can see you managed to "twist my arm" and make me post again. Other smokers... I was wondering where they are... I know the change is inevitable and I'm not going to fight it, I will be a reformed smoker one day and I think we will end up like in the Star Wars movie where a guy try to sell "death sticks" to young Obi One.

You deserve respect for putting the smokers side of the argument. But you are being far to reasonable. No-one at dancing is going to have a problem with you. Where are the unreasonable smokers that were smoking in Rochester on Monday? Or even the ones from Bromley? And there's dozens of other venues where they smoke. Come on guys, why do you feel it's acceptable to smoke at the side of the dance floor?

Originally posted by azande
Wendy, you are making me blush!
Be reassured, I'm not going to start a campaign to have you banned. How could I? And as far as I can tell, you don't try to lead anymore (at least with me!).

Wendy can lead me anytime. I'm fully in touch with my feminine side

[Wendy]

Originally posted by azande
Wendy, you are making me blush!
Be reassured, I'm not going to start a campaign to have you banned. How could I? And as far as I can tell, you don't try to lead anymore (at least with me!).

Whew - glad to hear it !!!....But if I am ever crabby, opinionated or try to lead or whatever... people can just ask me to step outside.....

Wxxx

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Wendy
Whew - glad to hear it !!!....But if I am ever crabby, opinionated or try to lead or whatever... people can just ask me to step outside.....

Wxxx

Behind the bike shed ?

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Behind the bike shed ?

No way !!!! Too smoky !!!!

Wxxx

[Dance Demon]

As stated previously, I am a non smoker. However thought this was an interesting letter in yesterdays Metro......

In france, politicians are asking themselvesif they should print on a pack of cigarettes, a picture of a smoker dying of cancer, as well as the slogan"smoking kills"
Will the effect be scary enough to discourage the future consumers? The idea is not stupid, and could go far. We could print on packs of sweets, photographs of decaying teeth, and on the labels of bottles of beer or spirits, pictures of people killed or injured by drunk drivers. On all the plastic packages, tins, mineral water bottles, a view of landfill sites, where the rubbish of our society of hyper consumption piles up for centuries and centuries.
On our T shirts, caps and sports shoes,we could see a portrait of the child slaves, that in obscure cellars, somewhere in Asia, sew with their small fingers, the clothing that we will wear only for a few weeks before throwing them away because the colour is not in fashion any more.
It would be necessary also, to affix on every litre of petrol, the picture of an oiled seagull, and on every oil barrel. a picture of the Earth, flooded by the oceans that will soon overflow after the warming of our planet. Or a picture of populations tormented by wars in which the only goal is to preserve the supplying of black gold to richer countries. At the end of the day , the best solution would be to print on bank notes this slogan "can be of great harm to humanity"

bit extreme, but some good points there I thought

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Some people do not have the luxury of choosing between jobs - they have to take what they can get.

Rubbish (IMHO)!
You take what you find TO START WITH and KEEP LOOKING for something that meets your needs better......and attend night classes (free if you're on a low income anyway!) to improve your standard of living.

There is no smoke risk factor involved in stacking shelves in a supermarket - a job open to virtually anyone!

If you want something enough, you'll find a way to achieve it.

[Wendy]

Very good points.... and I know in France they used to have pictures of unemployed people on the labels of wine bottles and some people did get jobs out of it..

Back to smoking.... smokers are addicts.. and none of that would have affected me when I was a smoker... it's too late to have it on the packet.. the message needs to get across BEFORE they start smoking....I'm sure the fashion industry doesn't help... skinny models usually smoke to stay that way... and I put on 2 stones when I stopped smoking and got really miserable cos I was out of work as well and my general confidence sunk almost below the water line ... and although it was the best decision I've ever made health-wise, I was pretty damn miserable... in fact I was probably a happier bunny when I was a smoker.....

Advertising does work... and so does peer pressure... One of the reasons that kept me off the fags was being made to feel like a leper and of course, the inconvenience of having to stand outside - especially in Scotland !!!!

I'm going to sound like the Blair brigade when I say it's the causes of smoking that need to be addressed..

If only CEROC had been around when I was in my late teens....jeez I'd be a good as Nicky Haslem by now

Wxxx

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
In france, politicians are asking themselvesif they should print on a pack of cigarettes, a picture of a smoker dying of cancer, as well as the slogan"smoking kills"

Warnings on cigarette packets has been in force in Italy for only THREE MONTHS......and my step-mum (nasty smoker that she is) actually bought a hoard of cartons of the old un-printed packets as she finds the printing "disturbing"......not sure whether it'll encourage her to stop smoking, but will let you know!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Aleks
Rubbish (IMHO)!
You take what you find TO START WITH and KEEP LOOKING for something that meets your needs better......and attend night classes (free if you're on a low income anyway!) to improve your standard of living.

There is no smoke risk factor involved in stacking shelves in a supermarket - a job open to virtually anyone!

If you want something enough, you'll find a way to achieve it.

I wish this were true. I used to think it was. I was completely intolerant of poeple who wouldn't work hard to better themselves.

That was before I bacame a Councillor. I've now seen the 'poverty trap' and it's real. And then there's real ignorance, illiteracy, depression, homelessness, poor health. poor education, hopeless parenting and many more factors which take away people's freedom of choice.

I've had a dose of reality and I don't like it much. That's why I do my work as a Councillor and try to help change the pattern. And the hardest bit of all is that often they say they don't need helping

And they nearly all smoke even though they really, really don't have the money

[Boomer]

I do not think this would have much of a long-term impact, and I’m not that confident of the short-term effects come to think of it. Pics of dying people and decaying teeth ect effect people on an emotional level, and emotions soon fade. The initial shock and horror caused by said pics would soon disappear, and the pics soon fade into the background in our perceptions. I don’t even notice the warnings on a pack of baccy, and I know for a fact I’m not alone in this. IMHO the warnings were placed on the packaging to secure ‘Big Business’ from prosecution, not a desire to prevent people from smoking.

I also felt that you were searching for an ‘immediate effect’ in stopping/deterring people from smoking – ‘immediate’ does of course have an element of relativity to it. In lowering the number of future smokers, education and debate would serve the issue far better than any emotional ‘kick in the gut’. The adverts, on tv and elsewhere, have had little or no effect on influencing me to stop...my god! Today is my last day. Researching the subject, looking at the facts and talking to people, smokers and non-smokers...and taking part in this forum have been instrumental in helping me come to my decision. The main problem in trying to prevent people from smoking is the lack of political-will. This is understandable - no government, with the swish of a pen, is prepared to create x-million/s cold-turkey law-breakers by banning tobacco (for example). Decreasing the number of smokers is a long-term process that requires the ‘culture of smoking’ to be altered – banning of ads, removing the ‘kudos’ that goes with one’s first ciggy at 15y/o, educating, not ‘emotioning’ (sorry) people on the effects, physical and social, of smoking, as much debate and as many forums as possible for opinions to be aired.

The good news is that at uni I’m seeing fewer and fewer smokers coming into my environment. Of course my experience may not reflect the ‘reality’ of the situation, but it is encouraging.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I wish this were true. I used to think it was. I was completely intolerant of poeple who wouldn't work hard to better themselves.

That was before I bacame a Councillor. I've now seen the 'poverty trap' and it's real. And then there's real ignorance, illiteracy, depression, homelessness, poor health. poor education, hopeless parenting and many more factors which take away people's freedom of choice.

I've had a dose of reality and I don't like it much. That's why I do my work as a Councillor and try to help change the pattern. And the hardest bit of all is that often they say they don't need helping

And they nearly all smoke even though they really, really don't have the money

I agree a person needs to be aware of choice (or lack thereof) for this to be relevant to them.

I applaud your efforts in bringing awareness to these people (from your post I have understood/assumed they don't even know they have these choices).

Once you've done this, is it not then their choice to be self-responsible and choose to live their lives differently (with a support network to show the options available and help them through it)?

However, whatever support we offer, some people will choose something different for themselves than we would choose for them.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Aleks
However, whatever support we offer some people will choose something different for themselves than we would choose for them.

This is a very good point.

Px

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Aleks
Rubbish (IMHO)!You take what you find TO START WITH and KEEP LOOKING for something that meets your needs better......and attend night classes (free if you're on a low income anyway!) to improve your standard of living....If you want something enough, you'll find a way to achieve it.

I suppose your attitude is based on personal experience.. good for you...... and I have little patience for smokers who say they want to give up and don't cos I have done that !!!...

Now let me tell you the story of the girl who was earning 18K but was getting held back in her company cos she lacked qualifications....so she left that job and went back to College.. then couldn't get a decent job in the new profession cos she wasn't experienced enough and couldn't get a menial job in that profession cos she was too qualified and her last salary column made it look like she'd be expecting a similar salary to her last job...then she had gaps in her CV which made it look like she was a lazy waster, odd or a criminal.... so she took a crap admin job with a salary of 10k and then her details of last employmnet made it look like she was capable of nothing more than the 10k jobs..... and she persevered for years before she just wanted to shred her qualification ....bla bla bla.... so yes that has been my experience of the world of work since going back to College to improve my lot !!!!

My point is.. it's not that easy to skip around the world of work..... and if your confidence suffers then the rejection gets harder and harder..... and if you are living in crap conditions, with a child or two or without a supportive partner (financial or emotional) etc etc then I can see how easy it would be to fall into the poverty trap....

And wouldn't it be funny if DD's future employer had been a smoker and if he'd put "smoky environment" as his reason for leaving his last job !!!!!

And that's why I found the comment about "just get another job" to be particulary offensive and naive... and why it hits a nerve when I see the Russian Roulette players getting jobs when I have been turned down for not knowing a computer package I could probably pick up in a couple of hours !!!!

Wxxx

[Aleks]

Was lazy......went to college straight from school...bummed about and pretended to work.....dropped out......worked as a waitress and barmaid for a while......moved abroad for a year pretending it'd be a "new start" but of course my "stuff" moved with me.....managed to sort my head enough to go back to college and did A levels in a year then a post-grad in Admin......was also told I was over-qualified/lacked experience so took crap admin/sec jobs.......still in crap sec job!!!

Meanwhile, 3 years ago found a private course which really fired me up. Arranged to get a Career Development Loan to pay for it (£7,500).

Am now in the last few months and in the middle of taking exams, still working as a sec and racking brain working out how the hell I'm going to pay off the loan in May next year. I tell myself every day that there's a way to balance it all and to take one step at a time.

I had thought that by this stage I would have left my sec job, with plenty of income from the new "career". It's not happening that way and I might even have to work as a sec for another year or two (AARRRGH!!). Even if it's longer, I will never give up the "fight". I'm incredibly lucky to receive support from friends and family - my boss, however, just laughs at me!

Everyone has their story......and we all find our own road a challenge at some point, regardless of what other's see/think of our position.

Just realised this should have been in the "introduce yourself" thread......

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Boomer
The adverts, on tv and elsewhere, have had little or no effect on influencing me to stop...my god! Today is my last day. Researching the subject, looking at the facts and talking to people, smokers and non-smokers...and taking part in this forum have been instrumental in helping me come to my decision.

All hail Boomer

Can Pammy and I claim to have saved your life? Do we now have to take responsibility for you like they did in many ancient civilizations when they saved someone?

[Wendy]

Well done Boomer !!! And every time you feel like a ciggie just dance with someone !!!!!! Careful though... that can be addictive too !!!

Wxxxxxxxxx

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

Can Pammy and I claim to have saved your life?

Of course, as can all the others who have been involved in this type of debate/conversation.

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Do we now have to take responsibility for you like they did in many ancient civilizations when they saved someone?

Ohhh Yesssss . There.will.be.plenty.of.responsiblity.to.go.around . I’m gonna be such a grumpy-b****cks for the next few days .

My sincerst apologies in advance – normal service shall be resumed, hopefully, by weds – my first class after stopping.