One for the veterans: Is WCS going the way of Lindy ?

[TA Guy]

I have been very surprised by how hard I have found it and the worst part is being a beginner again and the feeling of complete ineptness

Your not the only one to find this, but I gotta say, one of the things I love about learning WCS is the fact that I am (relatively) inept at it. The challenge is back!!!
I also like being a beginner again, the learning of new skills and being part of that group feeling 'we are all in this together' type of thing.

I miss all that from the early MJ days, and whilst I wouldn't want to always be in this boat (cos there is a lot of pluses about being, forgive me, a competant MJ dancer as well ), I making darn sure I am enjoying it now!

[David Bailey]

But the single biggest reason that stops modern jivers from getting good at wcs has nothing to do with technique or bad habits. And sadly, it often happens with those that show a lot of potential.

They give up.

Excellent point.

Because we have a "easy" alternative to fall back on, Modern Jive, it's sometimes harder to force ourselves to learn something than if we had no options available.

For example, I've only really started progressing in AT over the past 6-9 months, when I simply decided to stop going to MJ. Before that, I was simply adding tango stuff to my MJ.

Of course, now I've probably gone backwards with my MJ, but hopefully my overall dance progression compensates for that to a degree.

Similarly, I suspect MJ-ers will generally only really progress with WCS if they divorce it from MJ, and focus on it.

[straycat]

I know lindy hop teachers who have also said they notice Modern Jivers take longer to learn than non-dancers. I think its a similar case of questioning and frustration that holds them back. The good thing is, it doesn't have to. If you assume that your modern jive won't help you, ironically it might. Otherwise, it seems in some cases to actually get in the way.

Without miraculously winding back the clock and doing this differently I cannot be sure, but in recent years I've had cause to believe that this is exactly what happened with me - and I didn't truly progress in Lindy until I made the realisation that my assumption that Lindy was just MJ with a different set of moves was, in fact, a nonsense - and that my MJ 'skills' were hindering more than helping.

In some ways, it seems like I wasted a lot of time this way, but on reflection, I don't regret this one iota... because without MJ, I doubt I'd ever have started Lindy.

But the single biggest reason that stops modern jivers from getting good at wcs has nothing to do with technique or bad habits. And sadly, it often happens with those that show a lot of potential.

They give up.

To which I pose the question: Why?
Do they decided that it's insufficiently rewarding, and that MJ gives them all they need?
Is it that they find it too difficult?
Is it the afore-mentioned I-thought-I-was-a-good-dancer-and-suddenly-I-feel-useless-again syndrome?

And is there anything that WCS / Lindy / whatever teachers could (or should) do to help alleviate this?

[mikeyr]

I have been to about 5 lessons at Trent Park. Mike has been really encouraging, helpful and very welcoming, although I’m not sure if he is smiling when he dances with me or grimacing. I have been very surprised by how hard I have found it and the worst part is being a beginner again and the feeling of complete ineptness

It's smiling Maxine, trust me it just looks like that cos Iam trying to keep my top set in

It's knowing how you and many other MJers feel (my personal experiences included) trying learn WCS that we take the approach we do and even though complete newbies dont have that "I am feel like I am going back to square one" feeling its still a pretty daunting prospect being the new person at a dance class. We aim to make the learning process a pleasant one, cos not for everyone is it an easy one.

[Gerry]

To which I pose the question: Why?
Do they decided that it's insufficiently rewarding, and that MJ gives them all they need?
Is it that they find it too difficult?
Is it the afore-mentioned I-thought-I-was-a-good-dancer-and-suddenly-I-feel-useless-again syndrome?

I decided to try WCS because I was finding the music at MJ events far to bouncy and it all sounded very similiar, if I want to hear clubby music I would go to a club. My real preference for club music would be Soul, Jazz and Modern crossover from Northern Soul. There are a number of very small clubs that play this type of music.

The WCS music is considerably more interest and varied.

The actual skills within WCS are considerable. The dancers that know me well know that I play down my ability and personally I don't feel that I am a great dancer, I feel that I have two left feet BUT iam getting better. This is due to
a) Going to a lot more WCS events,
b) Not going to so many MJ events, I still need my fix and I would never stop, it has been alarge part of my life and I wouldn't be where I am without it.
c) Some private lessons

In the last two years I have seen many dancers that I consider as advanced MJ'ivers who have come along and left fairly quickly, I believe it is due to them not enjoying the fact that they are beginners again.

The guys and gals that have kept going are finding it easier, its hard work but its rewards are immense

Lastly thankyou to all the great followers who have given me so much praise and help over the last two years, without you guys I would have given up aswell

[mikeyr]

The first time I learnt a foreign language ~Snip~

And sadly, it often happens with those that show a lot of potential. They give up.

Because we have a "easy" alternative to fall back on, Modern Jive, it's sometimes harder to force ourselves to learn something than if we had no options available. ~Snip~

Similarly, I suspect MJ-ers will generally only really progress with WCS if they divorce it from MJ, and focus on it.

In some ways, it seems like I wasted a lot of time this way, but on reflection, I don't regret this one iota... because without MJ, I doubt I'd ever have started Lindy.

And is there anything that WCS / Lindy / whatever teachers could (or should) do to help alleviate this?

Gentlemen. Thankyou! youve put it so much more eloquently than I ever could.

I try to understand what hurdles there are to the learning process. I beleive Environment is key. Peoples background so that we can better contextualise, Lindy/Salsa/MJ/Ballroom/Linedance all have different terms of reference how can I relate to them, Passionate for what you do, a hope to inspire! And Iam interested growing my local community a bit at a time, World domination, we can do that tomorrow!

[straycat]

I decided to try WCS because I was finding the music at MJ events far to bouncy and it all sounded very similiar, if I want to hear clubby music I would go to a club. My real preference for club music would be Soul, Jazz and Modern crossover from Northern Soul. There are a number of very small clubs that play this type of music.

The WCS music is considerably more interest and varied.

This one intrigues me also... it's just that in my (perhaps limited) understanding, if it works well for WCS, it'll work well for MJ. Although not necessarily the other way around.
So if WCS music is indeed more interesting and varied, is that because my understanding is wrong, or because your local venues are not serving the best music that MJ DJing has to offer?

[Gerry]

My favorite venue is Utopia, the DJ's play a varied selection of tracks but I would say they keep well away from the clubby bouncy Ceroc tracks. I am able to dance as a MJ'iver or WCS at will, I find that I am trying to bring into my MJ some of the WCS moves that I have learn't, usually I need to trty and get the girl / follower top move in a straight line for these to work.

Having danced extensively around the MJ curcuit I have found that most of the Ceroc venues play similiar tracks. There are a few exceptions, big ups to John Baker and Oxo

Lastly at MJ events you will only find a few tracks that are WCSable but invariable you are asked to dance by somebody who wants to practice and these tracks are two quick for them ( and more importantly ME:sad

[TA Guy]

I can understand the problem of MJ'ers who get frustrated at WCS being harder than MJ and leaving. It seems to be a common thing at all WCS venues....

But it sounds a bit wishy washy as the reason to prefer to teach non-MJ'ers. *shrug*
If the MJ'ers get frustrated and leave, how does that make teaching harder ? I'd have thought it makes teaching easier because surely your left with those MJ'er and others who really want to learn ?

The only problem would be if MJ'ers got frustrated, stayed and maybe got a bit disruptive in some way. Does that happen ? Sounds a bit far fetched, but I guess not everyone is as well behaved as us Soton lot

[Gerry]

Mj'ivers have lots of bad habits, here are some examples of what I have found, please note I am not saying this happens with everyone, I don't want to tar every one with the same brush

Some followers tend to go on the 1 when they have not been been led because this is what they do within MJ. Some followers when they are trying to move their centre back on the 6& will tend to try and pull the tendons out of the leaders arm because they are trying to lean backwards with all their might

Some leaders tend to pull with their arm rather than body lead, obviously this is what they have learnt in MJ abut it does take along time to unlearn, some leaders tend to continue to move down the slot after the follower on 5&6 rather than posting.

As no real foot work is learnt within MJ, most jivers (especially the men)will find it really hard to triple step. After two years I still find it really difficult.

[Lynn]

This one intrigues me also... it's just that in my (perhaps limited) understanding, if it works well for WCS, it'll work well for MJ. Although not necessarily the other way around.

I've been surprised at what you can WCS to. OK it may not have the 'vibe' - some tracks just say 'WCS' to me - but you can WCS to a lot of stuff that people MJ to.

Though this could be because I'm doing WCS for fun (as no classes to go to) and am happy to dance to faster tracks - also am not getting led in any really complicated patterns so its easier to make them work at faster speeds.

This does mean, however, that I get to dance WCS every week at my local MJ venue.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I have not had any proper WCS lessons. Everything I have learnt is from Youtube, The Jordan & Tatiana weekend at the Royal Oak and at Southport. Unfortunatly, with the nearest WCS class an hour and a half away on a day I have commitments on, I find it really hard to get any WCS exposure.

On the other hand, I have a lindy class at the bottom of my road, one 15 minutes away, a handfull of others scattered within a ten mile radius and the brilliant Neil and Rena around the corner.

I expect this is the case with alot of MJ'ers who want to try a different form of dance. How many WCS teachers are there now? Im guessing around 20 (worth their salt anyway). How many Lindy Teachers? Prob up in the 100's

I have had much more exposure to Lindy than WCS for the reasons stated above however I have found that WCS has influanced my MJ more than Lindy has for the simple reason I prefer it and the music played at MJ events is more likely to suit WCS styles than Lindy Styles.

Is it harder to teach someone from a MJ background than WCS background? I guess it would depend on their MJ background and the way they have been taught. If they have been taught big bouncing rock steps, Over rotation and to yank women in, then I would imagine it is a nightmare to get them out of them habits, esp if they have been doing it that way for 5 years and think they are Gods gift to dance.

If you have a MJ'er that has had alot of Utopia/Blues room experiance, has had good tuition and is open to being taught, then it would be easeir to teach them than the average man off the street.

I will take RobD as an example of a MJ I have watched transfer over to WCS. I don't see Rob day in day out. Only at the odd weekender. When I first met him He was a pure Mj'er. An ok one at that.

When I saw him at a southport weekender doing WCS he did look alittle bouncy with it and you could see the MJ habits of over turning and stuff in there.

He stuck with it and now when I watch him do WCS (his prefered dance now I think) he looks great with it and one of the better WCS'ers out there.

He has only been able to do this due to preserverance, a willing to learn and good teaching.

(sorry for using you as an example Rob but you were the best example of an MJ'er turning in to a great WCS'er I could think of :flower

[Maxine]

Your not the only one to find this, but I gotta say, one of the things I love about learning WCS is the fact that I am (relatively) inept at it. The challenge is back!!!
I also like being a beginner again, the learning of new skills and being part of that group feeling 'we are all in this together' type of thing.

I miss all that from the early MJ days, and whilst I wouldn't want to always be in this boat (cos there is a lot of pluses about being, forgive me, a competant MJ dancer as well ), I making darn sure I am enjoying it now!

Just read your response to my post and I must say I like that kind of positive thinking and shall rethink my attitude to enjoy the challenge, as I usually thrive on challenges, rather than focus on the more negative feelings of being a beginner.
So thanks

[robd]

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community

I know this is a little bit pot stirring Mikey but, given your comment above I had to smile when I saw the promo for April 11th and the introductory discounts for members of various MJ organisations

[David Franklin]

I had to smile when I saw the promo for April 11th and the introductory discounts for members of various MJ organisations

Seeing as this thread has been resurrected...

Around a year ago, I seem to recall(*) you saying about WCS something along the lines of "When does it start becoming fun?".

Seeing as you still seem to be involved in the scene, I assume things got better. So, when did it start becoming fun?

(*) Of course, if my memory is playing tricks on me, this might just be the most pointless thread evar...

[Jivejunkie]

Despite Lindy being around at least 40 years longer than both MJ and WCS, I have to admit that there is nowhere near the following that they have, or the availability.

I can do MJ every day of the week and not have to travel anymore than about 25 miles, and although I have only been aware of WCS for a couple of years, I could easily find that if I wanted to. But as for Lindy, which for me is far more appealing than the other two, the closest I ever can get is one venue on the other side of Birmingham, which starts before I could get there even if I went straight from work, and then for some reason operates in 'Term-time' - so subsequently never been, and my experience has only been on a couple of Ceroc weekenders.

In answer to the original thread, WCS has a much larger profile than Lindy (in my neck of the woods anyway) so unfortunately ( no disrespect to the WCS'ers) I can't see it fading into obscurity any time soon

[robd]

Seeing as this thread has been resurrected...

Around a year ago, I seem to recall(*) you saying about WCS something along the lines of "When does it start becoming fun?".

Seeing as you still seem to be involved in the scene, I assume things got better. So, when did it start becoming fun?

(*) Of course, if my memory is playing tricks on me, this might just be the most pointless thread evar...

Hmm, I don't recall(*) posting anything like that and I certainly don't recall feeling anything like that.

I've always had fun at WCS even when I have struggled with it. Getting past the point of counting aloud is a big milestone and allows you to relax a lot more. This is why I advise new dancers to

a - really, really drum your fundamentals in and not just think of them as 5 moves - they give you that base to always fall back upon when struggling with more advanced material/variations/timing
b - dance it as much as you can socially. I see quite a few men who do a lot of classes and then never stick around for the social. For followers it can be trickier as the gender balance can be skewed against them (and men leaving soon after class doesn't help here either)

as both these will move ppl forward towards not needing to count aloud.

(*) Though I have a pretty good memory, I am now on 3000+ posts so am bound to have forgotten some stuff I have written

[Chef]

Seeing as this thread has been resurrected...

Around a year ago, I seem to recall(*) you saying about WCS something along the lines of "When does it start becoming fun?".

Seeing as you still seem to be involved in the scene, I assume things got better. So, when did it start becoming fun?

(*) Of course, if my memory is playing tricks on me, this might just be the most pointless thread evar...

Dave. About a year ago I was the person that said "when does it start becoming fun" and a whole thread blew up about my feelings (just after the last Weston weekend) that I had tried my best and really should just give up trying.

Well I have kept with it and it has become fun. What allowed it to become fun for me was having a club start up where I could get to it once a week for lessons and social dancing and sunday nights for purely social dancing. Being able to get to weekly classes and the hugely social atmosphere of the Petts Wood club meant that I could relax and enjoy it.

Before this my exposure was limited to monthly workshops and in reality I had only got one months experience 24 times instead of two years experience. There was no opportunity between the workshops to embed and refine what I had been taught.

I have just read RobDs post. I was one of those people who didn't stick around after the workshops for the social dancing. My reason - I had been on the road since 10am to get to the workshop, had my brain fried after three hours of lessons, and then be lucky to get home again by 7:30pm ro get ready for a new days work. One day WCS will move closer to where I live but that day is not here yet.

[robd]

What allowed it to become fun for me was having a club start up where I could get to it once a week for lessons and social dancing and sunday nights for purely social dancing.

I definitely recognise that. For me, the single biggest push forward for my WCS was Paul Harris beginning weekly classes plus 1hr of social within reasonable travelling distance.

[Minnie M]

Despite Lindy being around at least 40 years longer than both MJ and WCS, I have to admit that there is nowhere near the following that they have, or the availability..........

A lot of Lindy freestyles have merged with the 40's swing/jitterbug and therefore you would be surprised how many events there are - just look at my list

I can do MJ every day of the week and not have to travel anymore than about 25 miles........

I can lindy every day of the week if I want to and most of it locally

.......In answer to the original thread, WCS has a much larger profile than Lindy (in my neck of the woods anyway) so unfortunately ( no disrespect to the WCS'ers) I can't see it fading into obscurity any time soon

Definitely not !

Not sure where you are but I reckon I could find more Swing (as stated above) classes & dances in your area to WCS