The Ballroom Drop - help!

[jivecat]

There should definitely be more of these workshops around.

Sometimes I think these workshops encourage people to think they've got good technique when they haven't. I can't count the number of times some dodgy bloke has said, when I've been reluctant to do a drop, "Oh, you'll be alright with ME!" After all workshops rarely contain much element of individual coaching or monitoring by the teacher, it's up to the participant to decide whether they have mastered it or not. I'd like to see people having to pass a "road test" before they get a licence to practise drops on the unsuspecting public.

There are still too many weak dancers who think they're really steady doing drops, who don't check with the followers first, then look at me like I'm wrong for refusing to do the drop/lean etc. Even when I explain I only do them with people I've danced a lot with before or people that I'm really sure about following their lead (I try to be polite, but sometimes it doesn't work when I say no drops but then they still lead them!)

If they really frighten me I just say that I have a bad back, which usually gets a more sensitive response. It's certainly true that I have been left in a lot of pain before now due to over-ambitious dropping. Also, I'm careful to commit as little weight to the leader as possible if I'm in doubt. It must look rubbish, but hey-ho, saves months of physio.

Thanks due also, to the many leaders that have taken the trouble to learn how to do difficult drops safely, ask for permission, and seek feedback rather than blaming the follower when things go wrong. There are some fab leaders who just make me feel so safe & secure when doing a drop, it's like floating down on a cloud.

Anyway, drops seem to be going out of fashion a bit. Not that I've been dancing much to know! It has struck me that they're not quite as ubiquitous as they used to be. Or is it that I'm getting to the stage where I look as though I might break if anyone tried one!

[bigdjiver]

Do not try this at home, or anywhere else.

If I lie flat on the floor (imaginary photo 1) even I can raise myself to the sitting position just using my trunk muscles.

If part way through doing this I was to throw my head backwards, thrust my pelvis upwards and dig my heels into the floor I think my head would hit the floor very hard and do damage.

A fraction of a second before this occurred I think I might be able to be, for a minute fraction of a second, in a position where my body was straight and only my heels were touching the floor. (imaginary photo 2)

It would appear to be impossible to get from photo 1 to photo 2.

I surmise that doing the same trunk movement from the ballroom drop position could be sufficient to raise the backside off the heel sufficiently high and reduce the weight upon it sufficiently to allow the bent leg enough advantage for someone perfectly toned and carrying no excess weight to rise from the ballroom drop position unassisted.

It would help in this if the spare arm started parallel to the "supporting" arm and was brought down to the side.

All theory, do not try.

[bigdjiver]

{after 15 minutes of trying to copy NZ monkey, I have a sore knee } ...

There is a long history of the scientific brain leading its owner into peril, or even doom. (mea culpa). Can you trace any relationship to Franklin, Benjamin, who, amongst many other things, flew kites during thunderstorms?

[ant]

Easily Led, unfortunately I have not been able to find any dips and drops workshops coming up near you (I think you live near Northampton). Maybe someone else will have better luck.

The earliest one I can see is on 8 March at Shrewsbury but this is an 11/2 hour drive for you. Heres the link

http://www.cerocshrewsbury.com/

I have also seen that Howard Temple is teaching at the next Southport Ceroc weekender. If you are going it may be worth getting in touch with him to see if he could include that drop in his class if he is going to be doing a drops class. He normally does but I suspect it depends on his rotation of drops being taught at weekenders generally. This is his link

http://www.howardandnicola.com/

Unfortunately his next Drops Zone workshop is not scheduled until October but he is a good teacher for this sort of thing.

My local Tango class is putting on a series of Dips, Drops and Aerials workshops in March over a three week period, the entries and exits may be more Tango specific but the techiques within the moves will be the same. They have not yet given out a schedule but if you are interested let me know and I can keep you informed.

Finally the best DVD I have seen on Dips and Drops is by Peter Philips, here is is link

http://www.peterphillips.dj/dvd.html

but I would not even think about buying them until you have been on a good workshop

[Agente Secreto]

Finally the best DVD I have seen on Dips and Drops is by Peter Philips, here is is link

http://www.peterphillips.dj/dvd.html

but I would not even think about buying them until you have been on a good workshop

Been off-line for a while and missed some good discussions.

These are good DVDs but you're right about even these being a poor substitute for attending a small class taught by someone that knows what they're doing so can focus on correcting errors. Also the Ballroom Drop is not included in the 60+ moves that Peter Philips teaches funnily enough - for that you need to buy the Modern Jive Toolkit by John Sweeney which has a very thorough 'lesson' on the Ballroom Drop (amongst lots of other good stuff as well). http://www.modernjive.com/tmjt.html
I personally don't like dips 'n drops workshops at weekenders - I've seen the results of a couple of these at Southport turning half competent leads and follows onto the main floor with callous disregard for life and limb.

As to the whole thing of the follow (contortionists excluded since I've yet to dance with one at an MJ venue) taking all of their own weight I cannot see how this is possible in a full ballroom drop (final position as shown in the attached still captured from the John Sweeney DVD mentioned above). My knowledge of simple engineering mechanics tells me that if the follow gets down to the horizontal it doesn't matter what they do with their legs because the centre of mass will always be outside the position of the legs and without some other form of support (i.e. a lead taking a portion of their weight) then down they go - 'ye canna change the laws of physics Captain' . In the photo, even if the follow (Karen Sweeney in this case) had her right leg bent to the most acute of angles the majority of her body is outside the placement of the feet and without John's support she's on the floor! Hence of course the very strong upright stance that John adopts in the image.

I am someone that does use dips and drops in normal dancing and in any of the deep drops I expect to take a portion of my follows weight - which is why I only do the deep moves with people I trust are comfortable with the rather exposed situation they leave themselves in with regard to trusting me to keep them safe!

Diana, happy to find a quiet corner next time I see you at a freestyle and show you how I do the Ballroom Drop - the way I was taught in a small workshop when I was a newbie corresponds almost exactly with the way John Sweeney teaches it in his DVD and it is very safe and controlled.


Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

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[Koshka]

This may sound like an odd question, but does anyone have any tips for how to get over the mental block I have when it comes to leaning backwards.

I can do dips and drops, (though again it depends on the guy) and lots of good dancers have tried to help me but I just panic when it comes to the ballroom drop. I have been on a dips and drops course but it wasn't covered and we were short of time so couldn't really ask to do it as well. I'm near enough 6'0 which I think is a fair part of my issue but I really want to be able to do them. Any tips? Thanks

[Barry]

This may sound like an odd question, but does anyone have any tips for how to get over the mental block I have when it comes to leaning backwards.

I can do dips and drops, (though again it depends on the guy) and lots of good dancers have tried to help me but I just panic when it comes to the ballroom drop. I have been on a dips and drops course but it wasn't covered and we were short of time so couldn't really ask to do it as well. I'm near enough 6'0 which I think is a fair part of my issue but I really want to be able to do them. Any tips? Thanks

it is a very difficult one! the 1st thing is that a guy/ leader should always ask if you do drops! He should then do a couple of leans / testing drops at which point you should both know whether this is comfortable for you!
the most important thing is to take your weight when being lowered then that way you have more control & confidence. You should be able to feel if the guy lowering you is capable of holding you. if the answer is no then don't allow him to lower you any lower than you feel comfortable - and by taking your weight you can control this! I think the answer is to find someone who is capable of doing a well executed ballroom drop ( i am one of those!) then they should demonstrate how well it can be done and this will then help build your confidence!

If you are ever going to a weekender that i am on then perhaps i could help you with this issue as i have been doing / teaching drops for 8 yrs and can hopefully show you the correct technique / method.

[Koshka]

I'd love you forever if you would, I'll be at Skeggy if you're going

But yea the guys who have been trying are all very capable and have shown me with other partners what to do and how to do it. I just have a wonderful rabbit in the headlights kinda look (ask MartinGold he got to see it on Saturday).

[Barry]

I'd love you forever if you would, I'll be at Skeggy if you're going

But yea the guys who have been trying are all very capable and have shown me with other partners what to do and how to do it. I just have a wonderful rabbit in the headlights kinda look (ask MartinGold he got to see it on Saturday).

i will indeed be @ Eclipse - perhaps rather than being shown you allow me to help you! i'm 6ft 4 & 17 stone which may help you with the confidence that i can hold you!

we'll sort out details of how to meet nearer the time if you like!

[martingold]

I'd love you forever if you would, I'll be at Skeggy if you're going

But yea the guys who have been trying are all very capable and have shown me with other partners what to do and how to do it. I just have a wonderful rabbit in the headlights kinda look (ask MartinGold he got to see it on Saturday).

your a really nice dancer koshka so dont you worry bout any rabbit in the headlights look
i had some really fun dances with you

are you going to blissfully blues?? if so have a word with batgirl she will tell you i am a strong lead in the ballroom drop and can do it to any height safely

whatever happens the decision to do the drop should (as it was with me on saturday) always be the follows and no pressure should ever be applied by the lead

[David Franklin]

This may sound like an odd question, but does anyone have any tips for how to get over the mental block I have when it comes to leaning backwards.

If it's a real mental block, you might want to try doing the drop with a soft landing surface (anything from carpet through to grass to a full-on crash mat depending on just how nervous you are). Or possibly have a friend ready to spot.

You might also find what I call an "open" ballroom drop a little less intimidating. This is basically the same as a normal ballroom drop, but the hand connections are R-L and L-R so you don't have the arms crossed. Because the man can vary the distance between his hands, there are more options for controlling the tension, which helps avoid that 'It doesn't feel like he's really got me' sensation that can happen at the start of a normal ballroom drop.

Also, although it's perfectly possible for small guys to do ballroom drops well, you might find it feels safer starting off with someone you know is big and strong. I've done the ladies side of a ballroom drop a few times, and having a really big strong guy doing the lift certainly felt more secure in a "well, it doesn't really matter if I mess up my part - I'm not going to fall" kind of sense.

[martingold]

Also, although it's perfectly possible for small guys to do ballroom drops well, you might find it feels safer starting off with someone you know is big and strong. I've done the ladies side of a ballroom drop a few times, and having a really big strong guy doing the lift certainly felt more secure in a "well, it doesn't really matter if I mess up my part - I'm not going to fall" kind of sense.

are you calling me small????
i love you david

[Lory]

At 2mins48, there is a great example of a good Ballroom drop. This old lady looks almost like an ironing board!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dkHvRCp3z5A&eurl

[jivecat]

At 2mins48, there is a great example of a good Ballroom drop. This old lady looks almost like an ironing board!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dkHvRCp3z5A&eurl

Omigod!! That was absolutely amazing. That was essence of pure plank! Her transverse abdominis must be steel reinforced. Not only that but she can bl**dy well dance.

I'm going to stop fretting about getting old (not that I was, much) and consider myself oficially inspired. Now, where are those Frankie Manning clips...?

[Whitebeard]

Omigod!! That was absolutely amazing. That was essence of pure plank! Her transverse abdominis must be steel reinforced. Not only that but she can bl**dy well dance.

I'm going to stop fretting about getting old (not that I was, much) and consider myself oficially inspired. Now, where are those Frankie Manning clips...?

Nowt much wrong with her knees either !!!



(Is there a green-eyed monster frowny ??)

[David Franklin]

At 2mins48, there is a great example of a good Ballroom drop. This old lady looks almost like an ironing board!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dkHvRCp3z5A&eurl

If you manage to pause at the right frames, you'll see that that isn't a "textbook" ballroom drop. It isn't "bum-to-heel", and the knee comes up higher than the rest of her, breaking the line (only for a moment though). I say this not to criticise the performance, but merely to emphasise what I said before - the way people say this drop "should" be done is not the same as the way even the best performers actually do it. I can pretty much guarantee the guy's taking a fair amount of weight as well; this isn't an issue for a performance, but you might not want to emulate that technique socially.

(Note also that this drop is actually a nosebleeder into what I described a couple of posts ago as an 'open' ballroom drop, rather than the standard 'Ceroc' ballroom drop).

[Lory]

(Note also that this drop is actually a nosebleeder into what I described a couple of posts ago as an 'open' ballroom drop, rather than the standard 'Ceroc' ballroom drop).

Great name!

Yes sorry, I knew it wasn't the standard 'Ballroom drop' and should have said, I meant the position she was 'in' was a good example of what I think we were talking about on here!

[David Franklin]

Sorry to both resurrect an old thread and flog a dead horse, but I saw a link to a WCS clip today, and noticed that there's a really clear example of how a top WCS pro takes her weight during a drop. Again, it's not even close to "bum to heel".

[youtube]9m614IZNc5o[/youtube]

[Phil_dB]

Been off-line for a while and missed some good discussions.

These are good DVDs but you're right about even these being a poor substitute for attending a small class taught by someone that knows what they're doing so can focus on correcting errors. Also the Ballroom Drop is not included in the 60+ moves that Peter Philips teaches funnily enough - for that you need to buy the Modern Jive Toolkit by John Sweeney which has a very thorough 'lesson' on the Ballroom Drop (amongst lots of other good stuff as well). http://www.modernjive.com/tmjt.html
I personally don't like dips 'n drops workshops at weekenders - I've seen the results of a couple of these at Southport turning half competent leads and follows onto the main floor with callous disregard for life and limb.

As to the whole thing of the follow (contortionists excluded since I've yet to dance with one at an MJ venue) taking all of their own weight I cannot see how this is possible in a full ballroom drop (final position as shown in the attached still captured from the John Sweeney DVD mentioned above). My knowledge of simple engineering mechanics tells me that if the follow gets down to the horizontal it doesn't matter what they do with their legs because the centre of mass will always be outside the position of the legs and without some other form of support (i.e. a lead taking a portion of their weight) then down they go - 'ye canna change the laws of physics Captain' . In the photo, even if the follow (Karen Sweeney in this case) had her right leg bent to the most acute of angles the majority of her body is outside the placement of the feet and without John's support she's on the floor! Hence of course the very strong upright stance that John adopts in the image.

I am someone that does use dips and drops in normal dancing and in any of the deep drops I expect to take a portion of my follows weight - which is why I only do the deep moves with people I trust are comfortable with the rather exposed situation they leave themselves in with regard to trusting me to keep them safe!

Diana, happy to find a quiet corner next time I see you at a freestyle and show you how I do the Ballroom Drop - the way I was taught in a small workshop when I was a newbie corresponds almost exactly with the way John Sweeney teaches it in his DVD and it is very safe and controlled.


Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

Funnily enough, The Modern Jive Toolkit DVD recommended above is for sale in the for sale section

http://www.cerocscotland.com/classified ... =102&cat=6

[NZ Monkey]

Sorry to both resurrect an old thread and flog a dead horse, but I saw a link to a WCS clip today, and noticed that there's a really clear example of how a top WCS pro takes her weight during a drop. Again, it's not even close to "bum to heel".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m614IZNc5o

Edit: OK, I can't get the [noparse][youtube][/noparse] tag to work. Anyone got an example?

Or flogging a dead monkey

Seriously, I take your point there. I do. I will point out though that the first of the two drops in that clip was extremely slow, elegant and very choreographed, the second was a slide where being over the bum would be detrimental to the pattern, and Katie Boyle doesn't look like she weighs more than 45kg anyway so it's easier to get away with stuff like that.

Edit: Notice that she keeps her knees together rather than break that nice line with one knee sticking out over the top of everything else? That was one of the primary points I was trying to make earlier as well.