MJ lead/follow conventions

[martingold]

Late to this discussion

How is it incorrect ?

simply because the amount of leaders who once taught this (as stokie calls it) mantra will never change
In a MJ lesson people talk of muscle memory building moves purely by practicing moves and continually being told its man lead woman follow

The amount of good intermediate move based lead follow dancers i talk to now who think the whole rule of mj is one leads the other follows and thats a strict rule no opening for change or for interprItation of the rule

They constantly tell me they think the follows are bored with their small repetoire of about 50 or so moves (indead untill i found this forum and started dancing outside of the local club scene just over a year ago i thought this way as well)
It was almost as if my eyes were opened to a whole new dance which i could fall in love with once again

All i am saying is if you teach something as a fundimental non changing building block dont be supprised when they turn round and tell you that you are wrong when you try to show them a different way 5 yrs down the line

[bigdjiver]

i was taught bad spelling in the first place see that proves my point

My wife was an infant teacher. It worried me when she wrote "well done!" on work that had uncorrected spelling errors. She told me that at that stage it was more important to build the confidence of children and for them to enjoy writing. I was unconvinced. However year after year she was getting above average results from deprived children. Her children did as well as average in spelling tests when they got to that stage. One way they could have made fewer mistakes was to write less. This experience is part of the basis of my opinions about the teaching of MJ should first and foremost be about fun.

This has been reinforced by being fortunate enough to have experienced lessons by Michaella Walker, who combines fun, good Ceroc teaching, and slipping in style points here and there. I have also been fortunate enough to be able to see how commercially successful her style of teaching is compared to the average Ceroc teacher.

[straycat]

In a MJ lesson people talk of muscle memory building moves purely by practicing moves and continually being told its man lead woman follow

It's that old saying that you have to understand the rules in order to be able to break them. I strongly suspect that the kinds of utterly disruptive sabotage that DB et al complain about comes from follows who never learned to follow that well in the first place. The people who do it really well generally have an excellent understanding of lead / follow / connection.

Learn to do it by the book first (except where this goes against the 'having fun' rule). Learn to mess around later. It makes for far better dancers. And - at the risk of re-opening a can of worms - are you suggesting there's something wrong with using practice to get movements into muscle memory?

[David Franklin]

It's that old saying that you have to understand the rules in order to be able to break them. I strongly suspect that the kinds of utterly disruptive sabotage that DB et al complain about comes from follows who never learned to follow that well in the first place.

That's certainly my experience. Of course, there's also a vicious circle effect: if you're not a great follower anyhow, and you try to sabotage, chances are I'm just going to think "Oh dear, that's not gone right - better do something to correct it". That usually works in me sabotaging your sabotage, and neither of us particularly enjoying the result.

The people who do it really well generally have an excellent understanding of lead / follow / connection.

Absolutely. In fact I've never experienced it done well unless the follower was in the "Bl**dy hell, you're good!" echelon of MJ-dancers.

[martingold]

It's that old saying that you have to understand the rules in order to be able to break them. I strongly suspect that the kinds of utterly disruptive sabotage that DB et al complain about comes from follows who never learned to follow that well in the first place. The people who do it really well generally have an excellent understanding of lead / follow / connection.

Learn to do it by the book first (except where this goes against the 'having fun' rule). Learn to mess around later. It makes for far better dancers.

Of course i am not saying that beginners should be taught sabotage, hijack or even playing for that matter

what i am saying is that when you define something as an absolute rule ie man lead women follow you will have a lot of trouble changing that 3 or 4 years down the line i personally feel you need to put in a proviso as i said in this much earlier post

whenever i take the practice session i will show basic lead follow tension but say "when you are a beginner you are taught its the leads job to lead and the follows job to follow, however you will find later on that this isnt the complete story as sometimes when i am dancing i give the follower her own time or she might want to take that from me which is ok as well this is done purely by sensitive feeling of the follows movement a lot of what is said in dancing is done via the hold and the eyes" which gives the new beginners a chance to change at a later date rather than just programming them in the lead follow mentality

at the risk of re-opening a can of worms - are you suggesting there's something wrong with using practice to get movements into muscle memory?

Nope never once did i say that because i know that it is absolutely essential to make the moves second nature so that you never need to think about steps during a move while dancing it

[Agente Secreto]

…………….for pity's sake will someone please take the initiative and start teaching the intermediate class dancers how to flippin' dance and not just how to nail the front end of a yo-yo onto the back half of an accordion week-in week-out. Too much focus on moves not enough focus (if any) on actually dancing together to the music

SnowWhite does teach this – and for those receptive to the messages it does make a difference and generate a group of follows that can ‘ebb and flow’ with the dance. In fact this is part of her mission statement. I’m sure that there are others out there doing the same. However - is it viable (see my final comments below)?

Proverbial can of worms here Stokie. Is it the responsibility of the weeknight MJ class to teach this? Are (any/some/most) MJ teachers and demos equipped to teach this? Are the MJ organisations giving the punters what they want with the focus on moves? Or is what the punters want determined by what the MJ organisations give (chicken and egg)?

My opinion - the latter part of your post is the reality. Although I’m sure that many of the teachers in normal MJ classes could teach people to dance (as opposed to simply stringing moves together to a thump-thump beat) they don’t. The result is that many (most?) dancers, lead or follow, remain blissfully unaware that far more enjoyment can be had if you don’t simply go down the ‘move monster’ route. However, this unconscious majority is already having a good time - so they don’t ask for anything different and the teachers carry on teaching moves.

I'm glad I've experienced something different but the success of the current MJ model in getting people through the door probably means that I'm resigned to being in a minority for some time. In fact its probably worse than that. The venues that get people 'dancing to the music' to use Stokie's expression require the punters to think and work a little bit harder in the beginning and that might even put some people off. So are true 'dance' venues as commercially viable?




Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[bigdjiver]

SnowWhite does teach this – and for those receptive to the messages it does make a difference and generate a group of follows that can ‘ebb and flow’ with the dance. In fact this is part of her mission statement. I’m sure that there are others out there doing the same. However - is it viable ...?

It was not viable in Bedford. The Ceroc crowd came, glad to have the opportunity of a Monday night again. (Phil had just closed Bedford Monday.) They did not stay. In particular the women did not stay. It was a regular thing for the night to start with an excess of men. When some of Snow Whites lady dancers arrived later they often danced lead.

I found myself back at beginner intermediate level again. I woul lead a Ceroc move and the follow would go into a SW sabotage/play/whatever variation and I was left flummoxed. Unfortunately the classes did not last long enough for me to get unflummoxed.

If I had learned the SW way from the start and /or for longer I would have got on a lot better. Unfortunately her classes are not reachable by me so I cannot comment on viability, but my impression is that they work, perhaps for a slightly different set of dancers.

[StokeBloke]

It was not viable in Bedford. The Ceroc crowd came, glad to have the opportunity of a Monday night again. (Phil had just closed Bedford Monday.) They did not stay. In particular the women did not stay. It was a regular thing for the night to start with an excess of men. When some of Snow Whites lady dancers arrived later they often danced lead.

I found myself back at beginner intermediate level again. I woul lead a Ceroc move and the follow would go into a SW sabotage/play/whatever variation and I was left flummoxed. Unfortunately the classes did not last long enough for me to get unflummoxed.

If I had learned the SW way from the start and /or for longer I would have got on a lot better. Unfortunately her classes are not reachable by me so I cannot comment on viability, but my impression is that they work, perhaps for a slightly different set of dancers.

This is a sad indictment, not of Sara White or her brilliant dancers, but of the other teachers in your area who are obviously happy to do the bare minimum for their students.

Now, please don't take this as a personal attack (it really isn't). But, you say that you would lead a Ceroc move and the follow would do something unexpected. Perhaps the Ceroc move you were leading wasn't being clearly led. Of course this is just a perhaps. But stick with me on this train of thought for a moment. If this was the case, then this may result in a follow NOT sabotaging your move, but merely following what you were actually leading - rather than what you think you were leading. After all Ceroc is not renowned for teaching leaders how to accomplish a clear lead, whereas Sara White is renowned for teaching follows how to follow what is led superbly well.

I think part of this stems from the fact that people dance for many different reasons. Some people want to learn the skills needed to create a fluid dance, whereas others are more than happy to be bounced through a series of moves once a week. Neither of these groups are 'wrong'. But there may be a mismatch when they try to dance together

[bigdjiver]

This is a sad indictment, not of Sara White or her brilliant dancers, but of the other teachers in your area who are obviously happy to do the bare minimum for their students...

Sarah is doing a great job widening the scope of MJ.

The teachers in my accessible area teach Ceroc very well.

But, you say that you would lead a Ceroc move and the follow would do something unexpected. Perhaps the Ceroc move you were leading wasn't being clearly led...

I suspect the CEROC move was being clearly, but lightly, led. I was aware that the follows might have been taught something different, or might have different ideas.

... this may result in a follow NOT sabotaging your move, but merely following what you were actually leading - rather than what you think you were leading...

At this class Sara was teaching a mix of newcomers and long time MJ'ers. She built on moves Cerocer's would already know and taught variations where the follow could play. On some occasions I had been taught Sara's version and could not remember or react quickly enough. On other occasions the move would be taught in a subsequent class and I would remember it. In both cases it would spoil a good dance with a good partner. As I said I was back at beginning intermediate level in a new to me variation on the MJ dance form that I had not learned at Ceroc, Leroc, Le Jive or Jive Vibe, or before those existed.

...I think part of this stems from the fact that people dance for many different reasons. Some people want to learn the skills needed to create a fluid dance, whereas others are more than happy to be bounced through a series of moves once a week. Neither of these groups are 'wrong'. But there may be a mismatch when they try to dance together

I love bouncing through some tracks, but also have a desire to Dance to some great music, and play to other tracks. I love MJ because it is all possible.

[Agente Secreto]

I think that Bedford has challenged a couple of people. Did Dave Plummer also not try there too - and as has been said Phil Roberts was forced to close down his Monday night. Maybe it's something in the air.......... When I used to dance on Monday nights at Bedford, my wife used to get annoyed too, but that was because she couldn't get dances with me or some of the other guys as we were continuously occupied by some of the ladies that had come from 'Ceroc' who seemed to want to dance doing more than moves.

I didn't ask whether SnowWhite's venues are viable - she's just celebrated 3 years of classes, often in the face of 'spoiling' tactics from the local large franchised dance organisation as bigd intimated in another thread somewhere, so clearly they are. I owe the fact that I can dance (no comments invited) to great music to her approach and to the teaching in normal class nights that came from it (with the occasional musicality workshop from SnowWhite and CJ thrown in).

In fact my challenge is now that if I go to many other class nights I'm not satisfied just banging out moves and I can never seem to find enough follows that truly want to (or are able to) dance. Often if I lead variations in timings, or carve moves together from thin air I get faced with a confused look, regardless of how careful I am to make sure that I've built proper connection, have developed complete focus on my partner, or been specific about my lead. I've had several ladies correct me, one by counting me through a catapult because I had the sheer cheek to walk her round for a beat or two before spinning her out and she felt the need to demonstrate to me how such moves were done .

That's a long-winded way of agreeing with what Stokie said. When I've been to classes the moves being taught are MJ moves, occasionally with variations for both lead and follow, but rarely have any deliberate acts of sabotage been taught. However, I have often heard a move being taught with the statement to the follows that if it's not being led then don't follow. That might mean that the lead-follow dynamic is a little different than the Ceroc norm where perhaps lead and follow get comfortable (lazy:flower with moves being done in a standard way all the time and being faced with 'dancing' is a bit of a shock.

I'm not intending to make a sweeping generalisation, I don't dance enough at Ceroc class nights to be able to state anything about them with any degree of authority. I liked the Ceroc venue at Marcos in Edinburgh where there were great dancers (although classes were very moves focussed) - but I've not been there for a while so don't know what this venue is like now. Also, lots of the people I love dancing with at Jivenites venues also go to local Ceroc classes too so clearly 'dancing' is not an unknown quantity outside Jivenites. I've thought about this a bit recently because after my enforced absence from dance with a bad back when I returned there were a couple of these ladies that I discovered tickled my dance taste buds far more than I'd remembered they did - clearly the Jivenites dance influence having had a positive effect.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[jim]

Being aware of your partner's weigh distrubution, momentum, what the follower can and cannot do from moment to moment in accordance to what you are leading... these things take a lead's lifetime to learn. Few leads ever get to the point when they are conceous of the follower's weight distribution. You expect a follower who interupts you to be aware of something that the majority of leads are not aware of?

I was talking about very accomplished followers. I think most of us will bend over backwards for less experienced dancers.

[Whitebeard]

I was talking about very accomplished followers. I think most of us will bend over backwards for less experienced dancers.

(I always entertain rather indecent thoughts when I hear that phrase.)

_________________
"Clive ! I'm shocked" Fletch

[Flat_Eric]

Wow! What a thread. Having read some of the comments, I thought that it may be time for some reframing. Starting with the words of “leading” and “following”, then towards the contract between partners during a dance:

- Leading and following is a simplification of what happens in MJ. This is a good way to start for people to acquire the vocabulary of the dance

- With that being said, the practical reality of leading and following is bigger, much bigger than that. Sabotaging is one case, but there are numerous others. Some examples: some of you attentive leaders will have noticed that ladies hint, often unconsciously, a move they’d like to have happen in the dance. Another one, from my own experience: several of my leads are actually “fake”, in the sense that the signal can mean a number of things. What interests me is which one the lady will go for, depending; richer of knowing how she reacts to the choice (surprise, excitement, reactivity̷) , I can then select appropriate moves for her and for us in the forthcoming beats.

There are numerous instances of this, but the point is: as much as leading and following may act as the safety net of the dance, the reality is a lot more complex

- Now, to the “correctness” of leading: this one is simple enough: the leader’s outcome is to have the follower engage into, go through and complete the move elegantly and seamlessly. It’s pretty all that matters, isn’t it? So, rather than count on predefined conventions, define your outcome and act accordingly. A basic application would have to do with leading “unconventional” moves in freestyle. How would you, for example, get the lady to offer the left hand rather than the usual right? If there is a move that you do that is “not in the book”, what do you, as a leader, need to do so that the lady performs it the way it’s meant to, and with no previous briefing or vocal command?

With all that being said, the question of sabotaging can now come into play:

- The term, in itself, is a bit misleading: the girl is interrupting the lead of her own initiative. My assumption for her doing this is that , with the contract of being the same (ie: the two of you are dancing together vs. you are not dancing with one of the egomaniacs for whom leaders are a disposable dance floor version of a rampant rabbit), her intention for changing the rules unexpectidly is to mae the dance an even better one, and that it will make the dance better for the two of you. Note here: if a girl sabotages for good reasons, she is also assuming that the leader is capable of handling the sabotage. In a way, this is a compliment to the leading skills of the man she's dancing with.

How to react? Any way that contributes to the common aim is fine, and the break in convention that just happened is an invitation for the leader to get creative. Normally, lead steals happen in the middle or later part of a dance, so a good leader will hopefully know enough about his partner to generate an appropriate response by then
In all simplicity, dancing has something of a “you bring the wine, I bring the cheese” logic. Whatever works, whatever is good! If a follower gets more of stealing a move, she should certainly do so, and I should be flexible enough to make my lead an “active following” when this happens.

- To finish with: as essential and necessary as simplifications like the “men lead, women follow” convention may be to learning, they are guidelines and just that. I like the idea of sabotage being taught at lessons because it opens the door to those -women AND men!- who are ready to learn it. Chances are that women who prefer a full “follower” mode may not add the move to their repertoire. On their side, men can prepare for such a possibility, expand their understanding of leading - from it being a rule to becoming a convention, then a flexible guideline and finally just an ingredient that any partner of the dance may carry at any given time - and also take the opportunity to incorporate the beautiful world of following in what they do.

FE

[Gadget]

As a side note, I have found that the people who follow (almost) perfectly provide very nice dances, and smooth dances, and dances that match whatever I put into the music.

But the result is a dance where I am 'using' the follower like a prop. A responsive and elegant prop that I can use to embellish the dance. It's a lot of work - all the inspiration and creativity has to come from me.

With someone who does not follow 'perfectly', I am given opportunities, inspiration and some feedback as to my partner's ability and their hearing of the music. The dance becomes more of a partnership as the decisions on what/where to move are heavily influenced by my partner. I find dances like this much easier and can be much more fulfilling, dramatic and exciting than being a puppet master with the perfect follower.

[StokeBloke]

As a side note, I have found that the people who follow (almost) perfectly provide very nice dances, and smooth dances, and dances that match whatever I put into the music.

But the result is a dance where I am 'using' the follower like a prop. A responsive and elegant prop that I can use to embellish the dance. It's a lot of work - all the inspiration and creativity has to come from me.

With someone who does not follow 'perfectly', I am given opportunities, inspiration and some feedback as to my partner's ability and their hearing of the music. The dance becomes more of a partnership as the decisions on what/where to move are heavily influenced by my partner. I find dances like this much easier and can be much more fulfilling, dramatic and exciting than being a puppet master with the perfect follower.

In which case maybe the definition of 'perfect follower' needs to be revised. Because I know which of those two dances sounds more perfect to me. Maybe replace perfect with concise, accurate, flawless or some other word that defines absolute niceness? But perfect? Maybe that should be reserved for the latter of the two dancers you described.

[martingold]

As a side note, I have found that the people who follow (almost) perfectly provide very nice dances, and smooth dances, and dances that match whatever I put into the music.

But the result is a dance where I am 'using' the follower like a prop. A responsive and elegant prop that I can use to embellish the dance. It's a lot of work - all the inspiration and creativity has to come from me.

With someone who does not follow 'perfectly', I am given opportunities, inspiration and some feedback as to my partner's ability and their hearing of the music. The dance becomes more of a partnership as the decisions on what/where to move are heavily influenced by my partner. I find dances like this much easier and can be much more fulfilling, dramatic and exciting than being a puppet master with the perfect follower.

In which case maybe the definition of 'perfect follower' needs to be revised. Because I know which of those two dances sounds more perfect to me. Maybe replace perfect with concise, accurate, flawless or some other word that defines absolute niceness? But perfect? Maybe that should be reserved for the latter of the two dancers you described.

Im with you on that one stokie

personally the dance is much more rewarding when a follow adds their own interpretation to the dance
My leads are purely invitations and i am in heaven when dancing with the likes of jay jay, sunnybunny or maxine (and most other forumite follows that i know including DTS) who will have a play with the dance

[robd]

My leads are purely invitations and i am in heaven when dancing with the likes of jay jay, sunnybunny or maxine (and most other forumite follows that i know including DTS) who will have a play with the dance

Perhaps a different way of looking at it is that you are a lazy leader lacking the skill or the will for the role and therefore only too happy to shirk your duty and abdicate responsibility for the dance to someone else. I am not saying that's how I would describe it but it's one possible interpretation

[martingold]

Perhaps a different way of looking at it is that you are a lazy leader lacking the skill or the will for the role and therefore only too happy to shirk your duty and abdicate responsibility for the dance to someone else. I am not saying that's how I would describe it but it's one possible interpretation

no i am just a gentleman and not a bully so i dont intend to dominate the whole dance by insisting my partner does as i command
i allow them the space to play if they want to
And by the way its a lot more demanding to the lead if done properly as you are constantly kept on your toes by the follow

[MartinHarper]

There are plenty of Modern Jive followers who refuse to follow, and Modern Jive leaders who let them. Everyone can see examples of that aesthetic on the dance floor of their local venue. If they're not copying, it's because they don't want to, not because they've been brainwashed by the teacher.

It seems interesting to me that I lead the women’s rhythm, you meet them in the middle and Stray leads them in ‘their’ rhythm.

In what way are you leading your partner's rhythm? Obviously the music is 4/4, and I guess you dance to that. Do you dance ahead of the beat, or behind the beat, and lead that? Do you lead swung quavers when the music is straight quavers, or vica versa? Do you lead half time or double time? Do you lead syncopated movements? Do you build tension by hitting a beat late and then resolve that tension at a break? Something else?

[jim]

In what way are you leading your partner's rhythm? Obviously the music is 4/4, and I guess you dance to that. Do you dance ahead of the beat, or behind the beat, and lead that? Do you lead swung quavers when the music is straight quavers, or vica versa? Do you lead half time or double time? Do you lead syncopated movements? Do you build tension by hitting a beat late and then resolve that tension at a break? Something else?

Clearly I don't understand as mush about music as you.

But yes I can lead half time or double time and some syncopations.

But I guess more importantly I'm talking about 'setting the tone'.
I could dance to the vocal or the percussion or I could dance to the actual beat. Or I could dance to the meter i.e. the 'clapping' sound.

Obviously there’s ‘a way’ of doing jive and I try to largely stick to the ‘convention’.

If you take beats as an example you can accelerate quickly into a beat and stop abruptly or you could maintain a steady speed of movement from one beat to the next, or you could float gently over them merely nodding at them as they pass.

- You have different possible interpretations at your disposal.

For example, once I was dancing with a woman and we weren’t really gelling. And then she said ‘I get it we’re dancing to different parts of the music’. She was dancing to the beat (short and abrupt) and I was dancing to the vocal and instrumental part (smooth). On that occasion I lead to her rhythm because I picked up on it before she picked up on mine.

But I would say that strictly speaking since she is a follower and I am the lead, she should follow my rhythm and not vice versa.

And I don’t just think that because I am obsessed by rules and conventions. I personally find it very difficult to lead in some else rhythm.

I have a feeling that following in someone else’s rhythm is easier than leading in someone else’s rhythm.

I do say that as a lead who can’t follow though, so maybe someone who does both could tell us?