Ceroc Scotland Forum

I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

thewurlitzerrocks wrote: I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea.

Are you sure you're giving clear enough signals? It may be she's genuinely misinterpreted an ambiguous signal.

I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin.

Sounds like my dancing...

There's some discussion of leading yoyos vs hatchbacks here:
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/show ... php?t=3726

thewurlitzerrocks wrote:I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

Hiya
have you asked them for feedback, and then repeated the move a few times within the dance to see if they can pick up your signals? Perhaps it is just a matter of spending a little time getting to know them so you can understand each other a bit better. A few guys that I dance with I don't pick up on them too quickly, so when I fluff it I ask them to do it again later , if I fluff it again we unpick it a little.
It sort of helps
Diana

thewurlitzerrocks wrote: Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

Is this for revenge?

If the lady doesn't follow your lead then I would look at why this is happening. I think it can be useful to lead neck break/open neck break or pretzl/dummy pretzl if you think your lead is great and you're trying to stop the woman from anticipating the move. Maybe the women really are doing their own thing and not interested in your lead, I would let your go really weak and just let them lead themselves They might get the message.

Be careful about leading any move that stops the woman dead, you could really hurt her.

ZW

thewurlitzerrocks wrote:I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

Lots of guys go through phases where they think they're getting the hang of it, and then think it's the ladies' fault for not following.

When actually, more often than not, it's the guys' fault for not leading properly or carefully enough.

What might be most helpful for you is to assume that it's your fault they do the wrong thing, and work on refining how you lead. Even if sometimes it's not true (and it almost always is ), it will still help your dancing if you do. If the lady is anticipating, you need to practise leading even more clearly and even earlier than normal (but without wrestling), to help her realise what you want before she has the chance to do something else. This can be very difficult sometimes.

You'll find that when your lead gets better, all the girls will improve too - all at the same time.

I know this isn't what you want to hear - if I'd heard it when I needed to, I might now be a much better dancer than I am.

Chris

Come down/up/across to Bristol some time and let us Ladies put you through your paces! Actually this week-end would be good - Trinity Le Roc are holding 'Boppin in Bristol' Will and Kate, David and Lily, Adam and Tas and Rob C and Debbie are teaching and demoing. It will be a wonderful day/evening!

I'm sure they/we Ladies could help!

Let me know if you can make it!

Elaine

ChrisA wrote:Lots of guys go through phases where they think they're getting the hang of it, and then think it's the ladies' fault for not following.

When actually, more often than not, it's the guys' fault for not leading properly or carefully enough.

What might be most helpful for you is to assume that it's your fault they do the wrong thing, and work on refining how you lead. Even if sometimes it's not true (and it almost always is ), it will still help your dancing if you do. If the lady is anticipating, you need to practise leading even more clearly and even earlier than normal (but without wrestling), to help her realise what you want before she has the chance to do something else. This can be very difficult sometimes.

You'll find that when your lead gets better, all the girls will improve too - all at the same time.

I know this isn't what you want to hear - if I'd heard it when I needed to, I might now be a much better dancer than I am.

Chris

all of that.

IMHO there is also some responsibilty on the ladies to learn to maintain a frame, and follow the lead, rather than executing move that they know when they recognise the signal. It is a team effort after all.

ZW

thewurlitzerrocks wrote:I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

Not much more to add to everone's posts above:

The moves you have quoted are moves where the lady can go into a free-spin if led differently; generally they have to have something to 'push' against to do this - if you concentrate on leading the move while removing this 'push-off' point, it may help your lead.

If I am dancing with a lady is anticipating too much, I just throw in a few variations that lead her somewhere she didn't expect to be. I find a Yo-Yo-Sholder-Slide is a good move to catch the ladys anticipating and get them to sharpen up a bit: After a couple of moves like that, the ladys try to follow more than anticipate.

I think you are misinterpreting the lady's intentions -- she's just indicating that she'd like some time to express herself

So, just lead a comb -- and stand absolutely still -- so that the lady has plenty of time to dance her own moves. When she's finished -- step back and continue.

If you get a blank look -- that simply means that she'd like more time

SpinDr.

thewurlitzerrocks wrote:I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

THUMBS?

I wurlitzer and they push spin.

Wurlitzer recap:
1. Step back.
2. Step in. Boy's left to girl's right in a palm-to-palm hold, girl's right to boy's left in a normal hold.
3. Prepare. Boy pushes away girl's right hand, and girl rotates 90°
4. Spin.

The key to the Wurlitzer/Push Spin confusion, for me, is the lead to get from the step in to the "prepare" stage. It's possible to lead this bit entirely from the girl's left hand: push it one way to get the girl to turn 90°, and then push it the other way to stop her from turning any more. That's a perfectly valid lead, IMO, and it works fine to slow music and/or with a great partner.

To faster music, or with less advanced women, the same lead can run into problems. The problem is that you're using the same hand (the girl's left hand) to send two contradictory leads, one after the other. Sometimes that second lead gets lost in the noise, and the result is that the girl goes into a very graceful Push Spin. It's not that she doesn't like being told what to do - it's that she can't hear what she's being told to do.

I find one solution is to use both hands to lead the "prepare" stage. Thus, the push on the girl's right hand leads her to start rotating, and the right hand is used to lead her to stop rotating (and eventually start rotating in the other direction). You still have two contradictory leads, but because they've been sent using different hands, it's less likely that they'll collide en route to her brain.

bigdjiver wrote: THUMBS?

BigD, don't forget we have.... knees

In both cases you are losing contact with the woman when you didn't intend to. You should examine what you are doing differently/the same when you are doing the moves which are getting confused. If possible ask a friendly follower who is not doing what you expected to dance with you and give you feedback on what it is which is making her do the other move. It may be, for example, that you are pushing too hard, making her think that she needs to freespin. Or it may be that your handhold is very loose, making her think you're letting go. Alternatively ask a teacher or taxi for help.

Zebra Woman wrote: BigD, don't forget we have.... knees

I have devoted much time to studying them

bigdjiver wrote:I have devoted much time to studying them

Always wondered what you were looking at

thewurlitzerrocks wrote: Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

The shoulder slide lends its self to variations. Once the follow is behind you, you can keep the right hand hold to finish as a Yo-Yo, or pull past on your right and spin. Change to left hand and pull past on left, spin.
1/4 turn self right and turn follow counter clock wise behind you. then catapult finish.
But as has been said don't force it, make the lead expansive and be prepared for it to take a beat or two for your partner to realise she should go somewhere else.

ChrisA wrote:
Lots of guys go through phases where they think they're getting the hang of it, and then think it's the ladies' fault for not following.

In general I don't have trouble leading beginner type moves except (and I accept that the fault is mine) trying to lead the American Spin in its truncated form. Spins being a useful way of seamlessly changing hands. As taught at both JazzJive and Ceroc under the same name (before the changes) it's back L-R, together, L arm and leg to the right in a fancy walk for an odd number of steps, while L arm and leg extended to the right lead (flick) the lady into a CW spin, and return ACW.

That's OK, but on a crowded floor there usually isn't room for those swingy sideways steps so I try to lead it directly from the step in and lead to the R .... and almost invariably the lady just doesn't read my intentions despite perhaps a squease of the hand, an attempt at eye contact, and a momentary hesitation to prepare. There's no tension in the lady's arm and, even if she does eventually get the message, a beat or two are lost. Should I just abandon ship or is there a secret to this???

Whitebeard wrote:... while L arm and leg extended to the right lead (flick) the lady into a CW spin, and return ACW.
...and almost invariably the lady just doesn't read my intentions ...Should I just abandon ship or is there a secret to this???

Try not actually 'flicking' to the side, lead the hand in a motion to start the lady turning (past her hip) and 'flick' forward.

Test it on the exit to the cattapult where you draw the lady round infront of you; don't just let your hand drift off to the left - continue the motion and start her turning before you release. (Warning:If you 'hold on' rather than 'flicking', or try to lead them too far, they may mistake the lead for a wrap.)

1. Step back (pref. girl back right)
2. Girl starts to rotate, but is stopped after 90°
3. Girl is spun in the opposite direction.

I assume the difficulty is getting the woman to do the right thing on 2? One possibility is to use my spare hand (right in this case) on the girl's wrist or lower arm to emphasise the stop. Another possibility is to stamp my foot in a dramatic manner on 2. Both options are signally, but if my partner has floppy arms, signals are where it's at...