CQB dance moves

[Raul]

I look out for the most fiery dance partners i can find. However carefully we dance some idiot will inavariably cut into our space and this can result in some prime comments from said partner e.g. "what an a**e h**e he did not even notice!". This is better fun than the dance itself!

[Northants Girly]

Wow a flower from a lady - that's made my day!

Allow me to offer the same

I'm really grateful to y'all for the helpful info that's up here. It certainly makes dancing Ceroc easier. And it's waaay less painful learning from other's mistakes, so thanks for sharing.

You're not giving much away in your profile
At least tell us where you dance?

NG

[Gadget]

I call it "combat dancing" when you have to 'defend' yourself and partner from flailing limbs or inconsiderate dancing.
Do a search on the forum for "floorcraft." I like these threads...
In at the deep end?
Floorcraft
Consideration on the Dance floor

Now-a-days, I actually like the challenge of dancing in confined spaces. As long as I am not elbowed or trod uppon by other dancers excessivly, (or my partner is injured at all), then it's interesting, fun and can give a lot more 'intimate' dancing than normal.
{ erm, note that's the last reason on the list }

As to specific moves; lots of drop overs, basket and first move styles with copious splash of 'blues' timeing and carress stylings. Nice.

[Ghost]

You're not giving much away in your profile
At least tell us where you dance?

NG

I haunt the South East / Kent.

Anyone recommend any venues where I won't need my CQB skills?

Christopher

[Ghost]

I call it "combat dancing" when you have to 'defend' yourself and partner from flailing limbs or inconsiderate dancing.
Do a search on the forum for "floorcraft." I like these threads...
In at the deep end?
Floorcraft
Consideration on the Dance floor

Thanks. I'd already found the middle one, but not the other two.

As to specific moves; lots of drop overs, basket and first move styles with copious splash of 'blues' timeing and carress stylings. Nice.

Added to the list. Thanks

I also found that "tying the lady's arms up in knots" moves also work well. eg cleaver variations where you kind of weave each others arms around and spin the lady a fair bit.

It's also good if the lady will stay for a second dance, to do big flourishes moves at the beginning of that dance while there's still room and then gradually shifts to smaller moves. Kind of a like wave - big at the beginning, then washes down, then for the next dance gets big again, with leeway for unexpected space to let you add in bigger moves as appropriate.

Any suggestions as to what to do if someone tries to dip a lady into the space you're currently occupying? Someone tried to dip their lady's head through my chest! - I was able to skip into the space I was about to lead my lady into.

I had a eureka moment last week. I was in the middle of a dance floor that was getting more and more crowded when the lady I was dancing with shifted to dancing at half speed. I kid you not it was like magic - so much easier to deal with the over-crowding

The only catch is that this trick only works if your partner is willing to go along with it. A tried it with a few ladies under similar conditions. With those who slowed down I immediately got the same effect (think 'bullet time' from the Matrix), but despite the fact that I was leading, roughly half the ladies wouldn't slow down so I didn't force them to.



What I'm heading towards is Bulletproof Monk style CQB. For anyone who hasn't seen the film ( the clip of him fighting over a bowl of Coco Pops is worth watching ) the quote is
"It's not about power, it's about grace.
It's not about anger, it's about peace
It's not about knowing you enemy, it's about knowing yourself"

My current interpretation is
"It's not about power, it's about grace.
Moves should work because they are clear and graceful - no yanking or muscling the lady around. They need to be controlled enough so that you don't need to suddenly pull the lady back and if you do, you can still do it gracefully.

It's not about anger, it's about peace
Make an oasis of calm and dance in that rather than getting more and more anrgy at the inconsiderate dancers around you.

It's not about knowing you enemy, it's about knowing yourself"
The antithesis of the hotshot; dance for the joy of dancing, not to show off to other people. It's better to dance a basket well and safely and enjoy it for it's own sake than, to dance an aerial badly and dangerously because you think others will be impressed.

Any other thoughts / interpretations?

Christopher

[LMC]

Maybe it's because I'm a beginner - but I can really live without those extended tying me up in a knot cleaver variations - two "iterations" is sufficient thanks. If they go on too long then the only bit I enjoy is the grin from my partner at the end if I've actually managed to follow them. It's not big and it's not clever. It's just b****y hard work

Manhattans on the other hand....

[Ghost]

Maybe it's because I'm a beginner - but I can really live without those extended tying me up in a knot cleaver variations - two "iterations" is sufficient thanks.

If they go on too long then the only bit I enjoy is the grin from my partner at the end if I've actually managed to follow them. It's not big and it's not clever. It's just b****y hard work

I'm curious as to how the spread of feeling is on this amongst the ladies. I've certainly seen guys lead long complicated versions and the lady normally had an expression that matched LMC's comment.

Does anyone enjoy being led through more than 2 iterations and if so, what's the upper limit?

But, if you keep the number of iterations down, they seem to be a way to pretty much stand still and do something interesting while you wait for the nice dancers around you to clear off so the lady can actually put her feet somewhere when she steps back.

Manhattans on the other hand....

I haven't learnt this yet, but I found this - http://ccgi.dancecrave.plus.com/bb.php?singlemove=373

Thanks.
Christopher

[Gadget]

Added to the list. Thanks

MJ can (should?) be danced in such a way that the lady is always stepping into a space you have recently vacated or a path that you clear first. {Search for "slotted dancing"}. I don't think that there are many moves that you could actually eliminate in there entirity. What tends to happen is that your path (or your partners) is blocked, so you have to addapt to the new situation and make another move up.
Things to avoid are lunges or moves that leave a trailing foot, moves that propell your partner and moves moving the lady behind your back (although these can be adapted by turning yourself)

I also found that "tying the lady's arms up in knots" moves also work well. eg cleaver variations where you kind of weave each others arms around and spin the lady a fair bit.

Just be aware that lots of the 'knotwork' moves have the side-effect of flailing elbows; either do them slowly, keep them tight, or be very aware of you and your partner's limbs.

Any suggestions as to what to do if someone tries to dip a lady into the space you're currently occupying?

Swap partners? go into double -trouble? Something that close and I would definetly attempt to steal them.

What I'm heading towards is Bulletproof Monk style CQB.

nice, but there are better martial art forms and smoothness. The paralell has been drawn many times.
I like the philosophy that the body is made up of over 90% water - it's your muscles and movements that prevent it from flowing and moving with a natural grace: you just have to relax and be aware of your body's movements {it's not about knowing yor enemy...} to go with them rather than constantly fighting against them or to controll them. {it's not about anger...} Water is very hard to stop, but relativly simple to divert and direct it's flow. {it's not about power...}
Amazingly similar to leading the lady.

The antithesis of the hotshot; dance for the joy of dancing, not to show off to other people. It's better to dance a basket well and safely and enjoy it for it's own sake than, to dance an aerial badly and dangerously because you think others will be impressed.

But young glasshopper, is there not joy in performing? Is there no pleasure to be gleamed from performing well? Is it just a test of skill as to how you can move your partner accross the floor? What about the music, the artistic flow, the moment? :drama queen swoon:
To assign motives of "you think others will be impressed" to people that do these moves is probably a huge mistake - if it's that crowded, who is going to see them? I can think on half a dozen motives behind it, but over-rueling all of them is a simple lack of consideration towards their partner.

[Ghost]

MJ can (should?) be danced in such a way that the lady is always stepping into a space you have recently vacated or a path that you clear first. {Search for "slotted dancing"}. I don't think that there are many moves that you could actually eliminate in there entirity. What tends to happen is that your path (or your partners) is blocked, so you have to addapt to the new situation and make another move up.
Things to avoid are lunges or moves that leave a trailing foot, moves that propell your partner and moves moving the lady behind your back (although these can be adapted by turning yourself)

Just be aware that lots of the 'knotwork' moves have the side-effect of flailing elbows; either do them slowly, keep them tight, or be very aware of you and your partner's limbs.

Or all three

Swap partners? go into double -trouble? Something that close and I would definetly attempt to steal them.

You can do this?? Cool. What's the ettiquette?

I like the philosophy that the body is made up of over 90% water - it's your muscles and movements that prevent it from flowing and moving with a natural grace: you just have to relax and be aware of your body's movements {it's not about knowing yor enemy...} to go with them rather than constantly fighting against them or to controll them. {it's not about anger...} Water is very hard to stop, but relativly simple to divert and direct it's flow. {it's not about power...}
Amazingly similar to leading the lady.

I really like this. I'm guessing you know either aikido or tai chi?

But young glasshopper, is there not joy in performing? Is there no pleasure to be gleamed from performing well? Is it just a test of skill as to how you can move your partner accross the floor? What about the music, the artistic flow, the moment? :drama queen swoon:

The joy in simply being alive. It's all good.

To assign motives of "you think others will be impressed" to people that do these moves is probably a huge mistake

I agree. I was assigning the motive to me as in "I could dance for this reason but chose not to do so".

Thanks for this. Any further words of wisdom for a young grasshopper?

"When a man finds his way, heaven is gentle." - Caine

Christopher

[angelique]

If we're talking about CQB, may I recommend grabbing the kicking foot, followed by a swift punch to the throat?

This really made me laff...have some rep for that!

[Gadget]

You can do this??{stealing a partner} Cool. What's the ettiquette?

Erm, the other bloke has just broken most rules of ettequette of dancing in a crowded floor - I think that a little surprise like this has much less ettequete to break.
If you're around for the BFG, I think that Marc & me and poss a few other people may just demonstrate this {...must remember to ask him rather than just steal/dump on him } - it's good fun.

I really like this. I'm guessing you know either aikido or tai chi?

I have watched Akira, and know David Chu: does that count? I think it's actually stolen from some of Bruce-Lee's philosophy. Most martial arts are about being aware of your self and your body, and using your oponent's movements to your advantage. Loads of paralells to dancing ... as long as you remember to stop calling your partner your 'opponent'

Thanks for this. Any further words of wisdom for a young grasshopper?

look at the number of posts <-. This forum may have a lot of meaningless chit-chat and tangent posts, but there is a lot of very good information and advice from some very good and informative people. {"some" }
For my contribution, you could look at the following threads:
Improving my dancing
Online workshop: moves, moves, moves
Dance Quiz
The mark of a good teacher
Beginner Moves: Tips & advice
Blues, UCP, Sinful, Sensual... What are they & how do they differ?{really CJ starting it, but I had my input}

...

Not saying that everything written is an inspiration, {unless bad spelling inspires } but there's just too much to point to: Think on something, then search the forums for it. If it's a new idea/fresh slant on an old idea, post a new post.

[Ghost]

Erm, the other bloke has just broken most rules of ettequette of dancing in a crowded floor - I think that a little surprise like this has much less ettequete to break.

If you're around for the BFG, I think that Marc & me and poss a few other people may just demonstrate this {...must remember to ask him rather than just steal/dump on him } - it's good fun.

Sadly, no. But it's something I'll watch out for.

I have watched Akira, and know David Chu: does that count?

"It's amazing what you can learn watching tv" - Highlander

I think it's actually stolen from some of Bruce-Lee's philosophy. Most martial arts are about being aware of your self and your body, and using your oponent's movements to your advantage. Loads of paralells to dancing

"It's a lot like dancing" Terry Dobson talking about aikido

... as long as you remember to stop calling your partner your 'opponent'

Even if she's using her ninja death grip?

look at the number of posts <-. This forum may have a lot of meaningless chit-chat and tangent posts, but there is a lot of very good information and advice from some very good and informative people. {"some" }

For my contribution, you could look at the following threads:
Improving my dancing
Online workshop: moves, moves, moves
Dance Quiz
The mark of a good teacher
Beginner Moves: Tips & advice
Blues, UCP, Sinful, Sensual... What are they & how do they differ?{really CJ starting it, but I had my input}

especially the online workshop
...

Not saying that everything written is an inspiration, {unless bad spelling inspires } but there's just too much to point to: Think on something, then search the forums for it. If it's a new idea/fresh slant on an old idea, post a new post.

I've been toying with resurrecting some of the older threads to see if the answers have changed and to see what newer members think.

Thanks again the time and energy you put into this forum,

Christopher

[Lynn]

If you're around for the BFG, I think that Marc & me and poss a few other people may just demonstrate this {...must remember to ask him rather than just steal/dump on him } - it's good fun.

Oh, yes, Marc's very good at that. I'll be there - can I play?

And speaking as a follow - we really appreciate guys with good floorcraft.

[MartinHarper]

What I really don't understand is why women follow those leads when it's crowded - why not just walk back out of them, and avoid the bruises? Is it a case of not wanting to annoy? Is that lots of guys lead drops "judo style"? Is it down to trusting the guy and being willing to take the risk?

In and Out

In cramped circumstances, I prefer the "Back and Forwards" - essentially the same move, but with the guy going in when the girl goes out, and vica versa. It uses marginally less room.

In general, I try to avoid moves that have the dancers in open position and both stepping back, like the in and out. That's where we're using the most space - particularly if one of us gets careless and ends up at full stretch. Also, moving backwards brings a higher danger of collision. Tricky thing is, every Ceroc move taught in class starts with "and step back", and I find it a hard habit to break.

Any suggestions as to what to do if someone tries to dip a lady into the space you're currently occupying?

My views on this have shifted a little. Someone pointed out to me a simple truth: if I am thinking about someone else's dancing, then I'm not thinking about mine or my partner's, and that's not a good way to be on a crowded dance floor. Those thoughts are a distraction.

[LMC]

What I really don't understand is why women follow those leads when it's crowded - why not just walk back out of them, and avoid the bruises? Is it a case of not wanting to annoy? Is that lots of guys lead drops "judo style"? Is it down to trusting the guy and being willing to take the risk?

Well, again, this may be my inexperience, because I sometimes have to really concentrate on following nicely

If you are in "the zone" where the dance is flowing nicely and you're following well without thinking so much about following as the music and your partner, you can be dropped 'before you know it'. If I don't trust someone then yes, I will sabotage a drop - but to do that, you have to "see it coming" before your partner, who is usually stronger than you, has you in a position where sabotage is practically impossible.

[Ghost]

In cramped circumstances, I prefer the "Back and Forwards" - essentially the same move, but with the guy going in when the girl goes out, and vica versa. It uses marginally less room.

Ahh nice subtlety. I also like doing the in and out by just rocking back and forwards rather than taking actual steps. I'll try this with your version.

Tricky thing is, every Ceroc move taught in class starts with "and step back", and I find it a hard habit to break.

Again, for me I often replace "step back" with "rock back" or even leaving my feet still and moving my torso back into the "sitting on the edge of a bar stool stance" if it's crowded

My views on this have shifted a little. Someone pointed out to me a simple truth: if I am thinking about someone else's dancing, then I'm not thinking about mine or my partner's, and that's not a good way to be on a crowded dance floor. Those thoughts are a distraction.

Could you re-phrase or expand on this as I'm not quite getting it.

Thanks,
Christopher

[Ghost]

What I really don't understand is why women follow those leads when it's crowded - why not just walk back out of them, and avoid the bruises? Is it a case of not wanting to annoy? Is that lots of guys lead drops "judo style"? Is it down to trusting the guy and being willing to take the risk?

Well, again, this may be my inexperience, because I sometimes have to really concentrate on following nicely

If you are in "the zone" where the dance is flowing nicely and you're following well without thinking so much about following as the music and your partner, you can be dropped 'before you know it'. If I don't trust someone then yes, I will sabotage a drop - but to do that, you have to "see it coming" before your partner, who is usually stronger than you, has you in a position where sabotage is practically impossible.

A couple of thoughts.
It is possible to develop a mental check of "I will only dip this far". It's similar to the mental check of "I will not scream like a 5 year old girl" when watching a horror film. It just lurks in the back of your mind leaving you free to be in the zone / enjoy the film, but pops up when necessary. Takes practice, but doable.

The second aspect is blocking dips. I'd strongly recommend going to a few aikido classes. Trust me there's a lot of simple ways to counter drops even if the guy is stronger and bigger than you. Judo has the "hop around" defense, but their "slap hand on the floor" breakfalls aren't great on a dancefloor. Tai chi also has some effective moves. Aikido will also teach you how to land safely if the idiot does drop you. I can do the female role of a double spin into flamenco drop straight into the floor without hurting myself.

The third is another bugbear of mine. We're meant to lead not order. A dip should be solid from a perspective of support, but the lady should be able to stop at any point. Personally I feel that you should only be doing a dip with a lady if she can stop at any point because "stuff happens".

And then there's the other possibility that the guy is being perfectly careful, but his lady just threw herself into a dip and he went along with it rather than drop her.

Take care,
Christopher

[MartinHarper]

Could you re-phrase or expand on this as I'm not quite getting it.

Ok.
Two ways to avoid collisions are:
1) concentrate on where my partner and I are moving, and don't dance into someone else
2) concentrate on where people are us are moving, and avoid them if they try to move into us.

I'm naturally fairly clumsy and graceless (one of the reasons I took up dancing) and still just an intermediate, so for me it's best to take the first option - "do no harm". Also, it feels more like proper dancing. If I dance evasively, I get that "warzone" feeling, which I don't enjoy.

[Ghost]

Ok.
Two ways to avoid collisions are:
1) concentrate on where my partner and I are moving, and don't dance into someone else
2) concentrate on where people are us are moving, and avoid them if they try to move into us.

I'm naturally fairly clumsy and graceless (one of the reasons I took up dancing) and still just an intermediate, so for me it's best to take the first option - "do no harm". Also, it feels more like proper dancing. If I dance evasively, I get that "warzone" feeling, which I don't enjoy.

Ah, I understand now. Thanks.

I suspect there's a third way - be so in sync with the universe and your fellow dancers that you glide into the spaces as they naturally occur. Have you seen the Eddie Murphy film "Holy Man" where he walks across 6 lanes of speeding traffic?

Take care,
Christopher

[Ghost]

I'm interested if when dancing people pay attention to the skil level of those around them and for example give more room to beginnners or people dancing with beginners, particularly when it's crowded?

Thanks
Christopher