Ceroc Champs 07. The results and the aftermath

[CentrAlex]

Well actually Alex and Lisa checked the rules thoroughly with the Judges prior to the first round. I think they did brilliantly and fully deserved to walk away with that trophy.

Well done alex and lisa

xxxxxx

Alex and Lisa were great, I'd be happy if I could dance half as good! :-)

Alex and Lisa obviously checked this with the judges first, which is surely what any competitor would have done if they considered there was a grey area in any section of the published rules?

I thought they danced brilliantly and demonstrated exactly what this section was introduced for - that is, it's NOT all about moves. It showed that you can create an amazing dance display from just 16 very basic moves

Highlights for me......
[*]Alex and Lisa taking the Ceroc x title and moving the beginners moves to another level

Thanks to all of you...

And because there was some confusion Lisa and I carried out due diligence and checked with the chief judge on the day and they said that they were allowed...but I'm sure that we didn't win the Ceroc X for the amount of spins that we executed and I'm sure that the number of spins wasn't the deciding factor of whether someone should or shouldn't go through to the next round!

Nice to see some forumites there too...sorry if I didn't get to dance with you!

See you all soon I hope xxx

Big BIG to TOM AND VICKY...KNEW YOU COULD DO IT...YOU REALLY BLEW THEM AWAY. JUST PROVES THAT YOU DONT NEED TO DO FLASHY ARIALS TO WIN THE OPEN...SEE YOU IN SEPTEMBER!!

[Jamie]

Big BIG to TOM AND VICKY...KNEW YOU COULD DO IT...YOU REALLY BLEW THEM AWAY. JUST PROVES THAT YOU DONT NEED TO DO FLASHY ARIALS TO WIN THE OPEN...SEE YOU IN SEPTEMBER!!

Congrats Tom & Vicky!!

[foxylady]

I can't see the site just now to check the pics, but I did see Steph Tozer in her Supergirl outfit on the day so I assume she's one of them.

It was Steph, and Suzi (from Jive Nation)

[Lee Bartholomew]

The track for Double Touble was "Wake me up before you go go" - Wham.

Am only 99 per cent sure. 1980's number one hit. Get's played at the Casbah.

Don't think it was that. Was a female singer I think. They played that for Ceroc X I think.

[Yliander]

Don't think it was that. Was a female singer I think. They played that for Ceroc X I think.

yep wake me up before you go go was semi final of ceroc x

[Twirlie Bird]

I was stupidly excited about going to the champs. It was my first time at a champs and although I was only going as a spectator I was so looking forward to it. I love dancing, and love watching the pros do it on the TV. I was really looking forward to seeing all these people that I heard about actually dancing.

The day didn’t disappoint. The venue was excellent. I obviously cannot compare it to the other venue but really did like The Troxy. We got in really quickly and the people on the door were very friendly. There was loads of seating and nobody seemed really strict about where the spectators were. I loved the fact you could sit around the competition area. This was especially good when the showcase and cabarets were on. There was loads of dance space and I enjoyed the amount of freestyles there were. The lighting was excellent. So much work went into getting the atmosphere so right. Well done guys.

I saw some amazing dancers. Amir and Cat were awesome. I have never seen them perform before and they took my breath away. Phil and Yuko were also out of this world. Some of the moves they performed just didn’t seem humanly possible. Simply stunning. My favourite showcase was the one performed to the Chicago song. It was so entertaining and I loved their moves. I was stunned by the standard of dancing. How the judges eliminate I do not know. It must be a very hard job and some tough decisions must be made.

Huge congratulations to Tom Baker and Vikki. You guys were awesome. Tom, just 18 years old. What a future you have. Also congratulations to Blueshoes & Ruby Red. I was so thrilled for you. So pleased the Nantwich cabaret team brought home medals as well. Witty Bird, you were amazing. Well done for getting so far. The biggest congratulations has to go to Woodface and his girls. Huge respect to you. You put your money where your mouth is and I am so proud of you. You deserved that win.

Although I had gone purely to spectate I ended up entering the aerials category. Thanks Fletch. I was introduced to a young man who was in need of a partner. Aerials with a stranger - new category maybe. I decided to enter partly based on the thread on his forum. I don’t want that aerial category to die out so I felt I needed to support it. It was also an opportunity for me to gain some experience having never performed at competition level before. Oh boy what an experience. A huge thank you to everyone who helped, encouraged and supported me. Special thanks to Yili and Nicole who offered the loan of clothes (yes that’s how unprepared I was).

So all in all a fabulous day. Awesome experience, great dancers and friendly atmosphere. Roll on 2008.

Last word has to go to my fantastic host who put us all up for the weekend. You were a star. Thank you.

[jockey]

And of course the other argument against a 'Ceroc' conspiracy is that the same showcase by Amir & Cat didn't win at Britrock either.

I have it on good authority that Amir and Cat didnt win at Britrock because the judges felt that though technically excellent they appeared to be dancing for each other rather than for the audience. However, this may be using le Roc or Ceroc criteria to judge a tango or "Jango" routine - as Cat explained to me at Rocbottoms in January Tango is a matter of passion and connection between the dancers not between them and the audience.
Amir and Cat are the best thing ive seen in a long while (though I wasnt at the "Champs" ) but it wont be the first time that many peoples idea of the best couple didnt conform to the opinion of the judges...

[WittyBird]

I have it on good authority that Amir and Cat didnt win at Britrock because the judges felt that though technically excellent they appeared to be dancing for each other rather than for the audience

Oh ****** I just spilt coffee over my laptop

[Minnie M]

........Tango is a matter of passion and connection between the dancers not between them and the audience...

(Slightly off topic - sorry)
The best tango performance I have ever seen, was Vincent & Flavia on the Strictly Ballroom TV prog especially when Flavia dance with 3 men

That was very audience worthy

[Andy McGregor]

I have it on good authority that Amir and Cat didnt win at Britrock because the judges felt that though technically excellent they appeared to be dancing for each other rather than for the audience. However, this may be using le Roc or Ceroc criteria to judge a tango or "Jango" routine - as Cat explained to me at Rocbottoms in January Tango is a matter of passion and connection between the dancers not between them and the audience.
Amir and Cat are the best thing ive seen in a long while (though I wasnt at the "Champs" ) but it wont be the first time that many peoples idea of the best couple didnt conform to the opinion of the judges...

I was the adjudicator at this competition. I was in charge of the judges. As far as I know, this is complete and utter rubbish. What "authority" is jockey talking about. Cat may or may not have a theory about why judges voted the way they did. However, it is up to each judge to vote individually. Therefore, the only "authority" is the individual judges. Unless jockey has heard from one of the judges who voted for Simon & Nicole I think we can say that jockey's "authority" is completely worthless. Come on jockey, tell us which judge has told you the reasons for your statement - and, while you're at it, please get yourself a capital letter ...

[Spiky Steve]

Come on jockey, tell us which judge has told you the reasons for your statement - and, while you're at it, please get yourself a capital letter ...

I agree with this comment about which judge and add a new dimension.

Let's the organisers display the individual judges names and scores and their respective scores like they do on TV for all categories.

We can then see how the points are accrued and whether individual judges mark for the people they know. Or whether there is no point system. Hey! we all like to boo the mean judge and they have the opportunity for a little fame.

How is it tallied or is this common knowledge that I am unaware of?

Spiky Steve

[Rocky]

I agree with this comment about which judge and add a new dimension.

Let's the organisers display the individual judges names and scores and their respective scores like they do on TV for all categories.

We can then see how the points are accrued and whether individual judges mark for the people they know. Or whether there is no point system. Hey! we all like to boo the mean judge and they have the opportunity for a little fame.

How is it tallied or is this common knowledge that I am unaware of?

Spiky Steve

I've judged for a number of different organizations and they all do it differently. Generally as a judge, you are given guidelines as to the criteria and then you are given notes or a scoresheet to work from.

I personally mark out of 5 in 5 areas (total of 25 marks): Musicality, Technical Difficulty, Creativity, Dancing Ability and Presentation. I then assess consistency across the performances (if they perform it more than once on the day) and also judge how evenly matched the partners are.

If all these are equal, the last point to look at is how well they engage with the audience - although it should be stressed, this is not part of the main criteria.

It's not foolproof which is why most organizations also have a number of judges and generally choose judges with different backgrounds.

I can't say for all organizations, but I can tell you that I have judged a number of categories for a number of organizations over the last 3 years and can categorically tell you that I have never ever been given a guidline that dictates the choice of competitor. I can also tell you that in each case there were 3-5 judges involved and not at any time did I think any of them had a personal bias. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen in dance competitons, but can tell you that I have personally never experienced it.

As has been said on another thread, judges are looking at a whole lot more than just what it looks like to the audience (as the detail above hopefully explains). So I can understand how sometimes the judges view does not match up with the viewing public. As also explained, sometimes a Showcase may not be 'your cup of tea' so this does create a bias with some members of the viewing public, but it really isn't a criteria by which they should be judged.

I would also like to point out that in my experience, some members of the viewing public are way more biased in their opinions of certain dancing couples than the judges would ever be...

Hope that answers your question?

[Spiky Steve]

Hope that answers your question?

Thanks for the reply

It may do with furthur clarification. Each judge marks on categories a certain number of points. Then the points are written down and totalled and hey presto the winner is found.

OK. Let's see the points. Let's see who marked what for each category.

I am pretty new to competing but it was the same at "chance to dance". Who had some 80 points difference between first and second in one category and I think that was for the cabarets. What happens if someone adds it up incorrectly?

Another question is can the total be overridden as in an argument put in to change the outcome of the totalling or do people mark once a discussion has taken place? I find it interesting.

Supposing one judge marks vastly different to the others, do you question their suitability or performance as a judge?

Spiky Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

I am pretty new to competing but it was the same at "chance to dance". Who had some 80 points difference between first and second in one category and I think that was for the cabarets.

80 points ? really ? i know when we got our rather bizarre perfect score in 2006 we were about 30 points ahead of the 2nd place* Cabaret... but 80 seems a bit much for 2007. C2D don't seem to have this info on their terrible website they used to have stats ....they've gone...



* i'm not proud

[Rocky]

Thanks for the reply

It may do with furthur clarification. Each judge marks on categories a certain number of points. Then the points are written down and totalled and hey presto the winner is found.

OK. Let's see the points. Let's see who marked what for each category.

I would happy to do this, but as we have seen some members of the public can come across as not entirely level headed! I think the feeling is that it would cause more problems than it would solve. Also, not all the sections are based on a point scoring system.

I am pretty new to competing but it was the same at "chance to dance". Who had some 80 points difference between first and second in one category and I think that was for the cabarets. What happens if someone adds it up incorrectly?

It does happen occasionally and hopefully it's picked up, but there is a chance of human error in everything - it's a fact of life.

Another question is can the total be overridden as in an argument put in to change the outcome of the totalling or do people mark once a discussion has taken place? I find it interesting.

You mark as you go and yes, sometimes this can lead to re-marking on re-assesment. That's because if you point score as you go along you actually don't know until you've seen everyone what the overall standard is. A couple may come in that raises the bar so much that it changes your view on the points you have given other competitors. Likewise, the standard could be overall so low that you have found that you have been overly critical - that's why notes are so important, because with the notes and with the memory of the performances you can reassess fairly accurately.

Supposing one judge marks vastly different to the others, do you question their suitability or performance as a judge?

Spiky Steve

You don't question their suitability, but they do have to justify it to the other judges. In all the judging I have been involved in the judges ALWAYS confered, so every judge had a say and it was decided by mutual agreement. That's not to say that it is always unanimous - the majority vote wins, but that is reached by reference to notes, scoring and discussion.

I can obviously only speak from my experience here.

[Spiky Steve]

80 points ? really ? i know when we got our rather bizarre perfect score in 2006 we were about 30 points ahead of the 2nd place* Cabaret... but 80 seems a bit much for 2007. C2D don't seem to have this info on their terrible website they used to have stats ....they've gone...



* i'm not proud

It may not have been 80 points, but it seemed a huge difference. I cannot recall even the category so unless someone else can remember ?????

I remember at the time thinking maybe the jugdes have a certain number of points to give in total and they had given them all to one contestant. I know it isn't like that now.

I'm understanding more now and more comfortable with it all.

Thanks

Spiky Steve

[Spiky Steve]

All replies

Thanks. All getting clearer now

Spiky Steve

[Spiky Steve]

Would have like to have seen the other entrys and those of previous years. Been told we done it differently to how its been done before with the flash moves etc. Maybe we have changed the way double trouble is looked apon in comps. Hopefully next year we will see some great groups doing great aerials. Hopefully next year, we will get more of a chance to practise and up things again.

It's a funny thing. We were told were we did it differently and that the others were doing the usual stuff. I would be interested to see where people have danced double trouble with suitcases previously

You were placed first in one competition and judged by a teacher who teaches and loves aerials. I don't think you will change the face of dancing but I'm intersted in seeing your style.

A dance with a stranger category for double trouble would be interesting though.

Spoke to you when I was very very tired. the part and had prepared for ages. We entered on Thursday last minute and had a couple of hours practise more or less on the night. Also decided we needed to match at about 3pm so headed to the shops and brought kit from Peacocks. lol

You really seem to think we practiced non stop for three months. We had a laugh at Swish. Decided it would be fun to have a team. We had two sessions making up moves. Some we were disappointed to find had already been made up before. We decided on a theme because we decided to go for showmanship and some carefully crafted team moves. I am still proud of those moves and the response from the audience. Apart from that we had basically two weekenders of which we practiced some but also had a great laugh and I think people enjoyed seeing us messing about with teh suitcases.

I'm sure you looked great in your Peacocks clothing

Most of it was made up on the spot including most of the aerials!!!!!

I would have thought that a little dangerous making up aerials on the spot and wouldn't have risked hurting my team.

We didn't get in half of our big moves either.

If you hadn't practiced then how comes you had moves?

Would have been nice to have had the two tracks but don't know how we would have coped as had trouble remembering what we did know. When it was over we remembered all the moves we forgot.

Events transpired to help you but go against us. Yes we put in work and having fun making up costumes and Ceroc disappointed us by cutting down to one track. We were disappointed at not being able to show what we could do for longer and give the judges a fair chance to assess.

Feedback from the a judge stated it was virtually impossible to judge six triples in three and a half minutes.

You can borrow my girls anytime £50 per night. Buy one, get one half price.

I'm sure they would have something to say about that and anyhows I would steal them from you should I choose.

I really think should relax about being placed above us. Me and my dance partner didn't even make second round of intermediates. We took three inexperienced dancers and gave a performance and got given third above some very good dancers. I'm sure if some of the more known dancers and teachers took the challenge we wouldn't come close.

Respect to all that entered a catagory that follows the Open and preceeds the aerials and showcases.

Spiky Steve

[Andy McGregor]

I agree with this comment about which judge and add a new dimension.

Let's the organisers display the individual judges names and scores and their respective scores like they do on TV for all categories.

We can then see how the points are accrued and whether individual judges mark for the people they know. Or whether there is no point system. Hey! we all like to boo the mean judge and they have the opportunity for a little fame.

How is it tallied or is this common knowledge that I am unaware of?

Spiky Steve

The judging method for Britrock is published on their website. It would be a great idea to put the judges votes on a screen. Anybody like to do that rather than watch the competition?

Of course, raw scoring is a rubbish way of deciding on the winner. It's been discussed before, but, put simply, scoring allows one judge to have more influence than another based on the differences in scores used by each judge. The only fair method I'm aware of is for judges to rank competitors. They might use a scoring method to help them to do this, but each judge must, eventually, choose a first, second, third, etc. It's all explained on the website. Please take a look.

At Britrock I did let anybody who asked take a look at the completed judging sheets. It was time consuming and was mostly during the freestyle. I should have been dancing

In my experience it's only losers who want to know where they came.

[Astro]

Don't think it was that. Was a female singer I think. They played that for Ceroc X I think.

Yes, I realise I was wrong. The person to ask is Ericklondon who was the DJ.