Rotation V Slot

[gebandemuishond]

I've lost you there. Do you call a phrase 8 ceroc counts, i.e. 16 musical beats ? First time I hear that terminology being used that way.
I've heard people refering to phrases, or major phrases, as 32 musical counts (pop music and the likes), i.e. 4 mini-phrases or 8 bars, or as 48 musical counts (blues), i.e. 6 mini-phrases or 12 bars.

I call a phrase the number of counts that the composer intended it to be, which in most cases in pop music, has 8 ceroc counts, or 16 musical beats, or 4 bars of music. In various other pieces of music a phrase would be longer or shorter, I'll try and think of an example.

I guess it's just a matter of terminology, but the duration of music consisting of 32 ceroc counts, 64 musical beats or 16 bars I'd call a verse or chorus or something like that. e.g. listen to Say it Right by Nelly Furtado, which has a nice regular structure. The first verse (from "In the day..." to just before "Oh you don't mean nothing at all to me") lasts for 64 musical beats and consists of 4 phrases (you can tell there are 4 phrases because the melody and chords repeat themselves 4 times).

I hope this helps!

Dan

[NZ Monkey]

I call a phrase the number of counts that the composer intended it to be, which in most cases in pop music, has 8 ceroc counts, or 16 musical beats, or 4 bars of music. In various other pieces of music a phrase would be longer or shorter, I'll try and think of an example.

Every pro I've heard talking about this has told me that major phrases are usually either 32 beats (4 minor phrases of 8 beats) or 48 (6 minor phrases of 8 beats). Listening to music it's usually pretty easy to see why.

Apparently Prince has a song where one of his major phrases is only 24 beats long. He's just a freak.

I guess it's just a matter of terminology, but the duration of music consisting of 32 ceroc counts, 64 musical beats or 16 bars I'd call a verse or chorus or something like that. e.g. listen to Say it Right by Nelly Furtado, which has a nice regular structure. The first verse (from "In the day..." to just before "Oh you don't mean nothing at all to me") lasts for 64 musical beats and consists of 4 phrases (you can tell there are 4 phrases because the melody and chords repeat themselves 4 times).

I hope this helps!

Dan

Say it Right is phrased in the same way most pop music is - 32 beat major phrases. Often you'll find in pop music that there is little or no distinction between phrases in a verse. It's quite typical to find verses that are two major phases long. Say it Right is a good example of such a song. Robert Royston makes a point of this trend in modern music in one of his musicality DVD's.

What I'd guess is a little unusual is the the chorus is exactly the same - two major phrases or 32 beats each. I find that most of the music I listen to (which I'll confess tends to be a little less mainstream) has a notable difference in structure between the verses and choruses. As such the songs tend to have something like an AABAAB or an AABBAABB structure rather than the AAAAAA one I hear in Say it Right. That said, I did only listen to the first verse and chorus of the song before posting this so if it changes later I withdraw my statement.

I'm not a musician. They don't use this terminology at all as far as I'm aware. I'm not a champion dancer either, but I've heard a very consistant strand of teacher from those who are on this subject so I'm inclind to take their word for it. Plus - it matches what I hear myself in music.

I'm really curious where you get the idea that a phrase is 16 musical beats. There are typically no indications in a piece of music is about to change until after those first 16 beats....

All IMHO of course. If somebody out there can prove me wrong I'm more than prepared to listen

[Caro]

I'm really curious where you get the idea that a phrase is 16 musical beats. There are typically no indications in a piece of music is about to change until after those first 16 beats....

I'm with you there, we seem to use the same terminology (well no big surprise given that we have the same sources, really ).

However isn't there something to do with a tonic on the second half of a major phrase ? I'm guessing that's all musicians stuff really, what I hear sometimes is that there is a first half to a major phrases that creates tension and that the second half sort of 'resolves' it, in the same way as first bar / second bar of a mini-phrase (a set of 8).
The tension / resolve analogy is credit to MH who once put it that way, and I thought it made a great deal of sense with what I hear.

[NZ Monkey]

However isn't there something to do with a tonic on the second half of a major phrase ? I'm guessing that's all musicians stuff really, what I hear sometimes is that there is a first half to a major phrases that creates tension and that the second half sort of 'resolves' it, in the same way as first bar / second bar of a mini-phrase (a set of 8).
The tension / resolve analogy is credit to MH who once put it that way, and I thought it made a great deal of sense with what I hear.

Possibly. I'm not an expert.

I can tell you though that in song's such as Wade in the Water, Sweat and Heatattack and Vine which all have 32 major phrases ending in an 8-beat break, I can't tell anything from the first 16 beats that tell me the break is coming up. If I was hearing them for the first time I wouldn't be able to tell you what was coming from the first two minor phrases. I can tell in the 3rd minor phrase. It may just be that my ear isn't sensitive enough though.

[MartinHarper]

How many people do you see rotating anticlockwise?

There are some moves that often rotate a little anti-clockwise in beginners. For example, a catapult with no return might start at 12:00 and finish at 11:00, if the lead stays still throughout the move.

The tension / resolve analogy is credit to MH who once put it that way, and I thought it made a great deal of sense with what I hear.

No credit to me. I read that analogy first in the book "Godel, Escher, Bach", many years ago, and it's a very old idea.

One of the applications of that idea to dancing is that dancing cross-phrase builds tension, and dancing in-phrase resolves tension.

[straycat]

If a follow overturns then they need to be pulled back on course prior to the next move which causes all kinds of connection problems.

Not really... it's a slight side issue, but if a follow overturns, it's easy enough to maintain connection. If my 'plans' had her in a different place to start the next move, I adapt the plans a little.

I certainly don't agree that there's any loss of muscality potential in a rotational dance. With half-way decent connection skills, one can maintain connection just fine through either.

[gebandemuishond]

Every pro I've heard talking about this has told me that major phrases are usually either 32 beats (4 minor phrases of 8 beats) or 48 (6 minor phrases of 8 beats). Listening to music it's usually pretty easy to see why.

Apparently Prince has a song where one of his major phrases is only 24 beats long. He's just a freak.

Say it Right is phrased in the same way most pop music is - 32 beat major phrases. Often you'll find in pop music that there is little or no distinction between phrases in a verse. It's quite typical to find verses that are two major phases long. Say it Right is a good example of such a song. Robert Royston makes a point of this trend in modern music in one of his musicality DVD's.

What I'd guess is a little unusual is the the chorus is exactly the same - two major phrases or 32 beats each. I find that most of the music I listen to (which I'll confess tends to be a little less mainstream) has a notable difference in structure between the verses and choruses. As such the songs tend to have something like an AABAAB or an AABBAABB structure rather than the AAAAAA one I hear in Say it Right. That said, I did only listen to the first verse and chorus of the song before posting this so if it changes later I withdraw my statement.

I'm not a musician. They don't use this terminology at all as far as I'm aware. I'm not a champion dancer either, but I've heard a very consistant strand of teacher from those who are on this subject so I'm inclind to take their word for it. Plus - it matches what I hear myself in music.

I'm really curious where you get the idea that a phrase is 16 musical beats. There are typically no indications in a piece of music is about to change until after those first 16 beats....

All IMHO of course. If somebody out there can prove me wrong I'm more than prepared to listen

Ok, it seems like we're just disagreeing on the meaning of "phrase", you call it a 32 ceroc count* chunk of music, I call it a 8 ceroc count chunk of music. Both are perfectly fine, and if the pros talk to you in terms of 32 count major phrases that's fine.

However, as a musician and composer I prefer to use the word phrase as meaning 8 ceroc counts, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, the origin of the word comes from woodwind players and singers, who call a phrase "the music they play in between taking breaths". E.g. in Say it Right, Nelly sings one phrase over 8 ceroc counts and the chords Em - D - C - Em, takes a breath and starts a new phrase, melodically and harmonically identical, and then another two before the chorus starts. The chorus is slightly different, so I'd describe the form of this song as AAAABBBB etc.

In answer to your question, I can definately tell the music is going to change (i.e. not carry on the same phrase) after the first 3/4 bars. It 'wants' to start again on beat 17. I'll try to think of some examples where this is very obvious.

Dan

* Please don't confuse "beat" with "ceroc count", they are two very different things, what the teacher calls out is a ceroc count, beats happen at double the pace.

[Andy McGregor]

Ok, it seems like we're just disagreeing on the meaning of "phrase", you call it a 32 ceroc count* chunk of music, I call it a 8 ceroc count chunk of music. Both are perfectly fine, and if the pros talk to you in terms of 32 count major phrases that's fine.

Ceroc count? There are two kinds of Ceroc count. The first is measured in £ the second is the Count of Darkness. How many times to I need to remind people that Ceroc is the name of a company, not a dance. Now, there is a dancing count that some people use. And, as said by geb.. there are two musical beat counts to each dancing count.

[gebandemuishond]

Ceroc count? There are two kinds of Ceroc count. The first is measured in £ the second is the Count of Darkness. How many times to I need to remind people that Ceroc is the name of a company, not a dance. Now, there is a dancing count that some people use. And, as said by geb.. there are two musical beat counts to each dancing count.

Hehe, I appreciate the "ceroc is a company" rhetoric just as much as the next guy. However, I didn't want to use "dancing count" because there are not always two musical beats to each dancing count, e.g. Viennese and English waltz: one beat = one dancing count.

Dan

[Andy McGregor]

Hehe, I appreciate the "ceroc is a company" rhetoric just as much as the next guy. However, I didn't want to use "dancing count" because there are not always two musical beats to each dancing count, e.g. Viennese and English waltz: one beat = one dancing count.

Dan

How about MJ Count?

[gebandemuishond]

How about MJ Count?

Ok, MJ count it is.

Dan

[NZ Monkey]

Ok, it seems like we're just disagreeing on the meaning of "phrase", you call it a 32 ceroc count* chunk of music, I call it a 8 ceroc count chunk of music. Both are perfectly fine, and if the pros talk to you in terms of 32 count major phrases that's fine.

...snip....

* Please don't confuse "beat" with "ceroc count", they are two very different things, what the teacher calls out is a ceroc count, beats happen at double the pace.[/

No I don't. I call it a 32 musical beat chunk of music. So do all the dance teachers I know of. I am well aware that there is a difference between beat and *MJ* count. That's why I was referring to the beat. If I had my way MJ would throw away the count entirely.

I'm also aware that musicians categorize things slightly differently, although I am unsure of the specifics. Given that this is a dance forum and not a musicians one....I'm happy to use the dancers definition.

However, as a musician and composer I prefer to use the word phrase as meaning 8 ceroc counts, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, the origin of the word comes from woodwind players and singers, who call a phrase "the music they play in between taking breaths". E.g. in Say it Right, Nelly sings one phrase over 8 ceroc counts and the chords Em - D - C - Em, takes a breath and starts a new phrase, melodically and harmonically identical, and then another two before the chorus starts. The chorus is slightly different, so I'd describe the form of this song as AAAABBBB etc.

Is that definition an officially recognized one in the dance community? I'm running with the assumption that it isn't. It may be better to explain that the way you define terms is different to the mainstream. You didn't do that. In fact what you said was

This is wrong, although the spirit of it is correct. I think Caro has mentioned the fact that music is made up of 2 'counts' per bar. It is (in the majority of MJ music) made up of 8 counts per phrase....

Clearly not specifying that your definition was different has caused some confusion.

In answer to your question, I can definately tell the music is going to change (i.e. not carry on the same phrase) after the first 3/4 bars. It 'wants' to start again on beat 17. I'll try to think of some examples where this is very obvious.

OK, I can tell that it wants to continue. I suppose I was taking that as self evident.

What I can't tell it is anything about the structure of the rest of the phrase - which is commonly accepted* as being either 32 or 48 beats in the vast majority MJ music. I can't tell if the phrase will be 32 or 48 beats. I can't tell if it will end in a break. I can't tell if it will build up to a hit on the first beat of the next phrase or pitter out and start afresh. I need to wait until after the first 16 beats before I can really pick up any clues as to how and were it's going to end.


*read: by everyone in this conversation apart from you as far as I can tell

[gebandemuishond]

Right, where to begin?

No I don't. I call it a 32 musical beat chunk of music. So do all the dance teachers I know of. I am well aware that there is a difference between beat and *MJ* count. That's why I was referring to the beat. If I had my way MJ would throw away the count entirely.

I'm also aware that musicians categorize things slightly differently, although I am unsure of the specifics. Given that this is a dance forum and not a musicians one....I'm happy to use the dancers definition.

Is that definition an officially recognized one in the dance community? I'm running with the assumption that it isn't. It may be better to explain that the way you define terms is different to the mainstream. You didn't do that. In fact what you said was:

Quote:
This is wrong, although the spirit of it is correct. I think Caro has mentioned the fact that music is made up of 2 'counts' per bar. It is (in the majority of MJ music) made up of 8 counts per phrase....

Clearly not specifying that your definition was different has caused some confusion.

My "this is wrong" comment was directed at someone who said "Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats". This is wrong, there's no way you could fit an octopus into 6 beats.

I'm glad you're well aware of the difference between a beat and a MJ count, a lot of people aren't. Ok, so you call a phrase a chunk of music that lasts for 32 musical beats. Or 8 bars. Fair enough, I wouldn't use that terminology myself and I haven't heard anyone else (dance teacher or musician) use it either, maybe things are different wherever you dance.

OK, I can tell that it wants to continue. I suppose I was taking that as self evident.

What I can't tell it is anything about the structure of the rest of the phrase - which is commonly accepted* as being either 32 or 48 beats in the vast majority MJ music. I can't tell if the phrase will be 32 or 48 beats. I can't tell if it will end in a break. I can't tell if it will build up to a hit on the first beat of the next phrase or pitter out and start afresh. I need to wait until after the first 16 beats before I can really pick up any clues as to how and were it's going to end.


*read: by everyone in this conversation apart from you as far as I can tell

Ok, fair enough, this last disagreement of ours seems to stem directly from our differing views on what consitutes a phrase. I call it 16 beats as this makes most sense to me as a musician and a dancer, you call it 32 beats because presumably that makes most sense to you as a dancer. Nothing wrong with that difference, so please don't get bitchy with the small print.

Dan

[tsh]

My "this is wrong" comment was directed at someone who said "Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats". This is wrong, there's no way you could fit an octopus into 6 beats.

How can you be so sure?

[Caro]

Fair enough, I wouldn't use that terminology myself and I haven't heard anyone else (dance teacher or musician) use it either, maybe things are different wherever you dance.

or may be you haven't been exposed to it yet ? Any chance this might be related to fact that you only started dancing fairly recently ?

Given the general tone of your posts I'd say you're suffering from accute intermediatis...

[gebandemuishond]

How can you be so sure?

Simple, the intro to "Crazy" by Gnarls Berkeley lasts 5 beats. 6 beats is the time taken from the beginning of the song to the first "I remember". I don't think you can change positions 3 times in an Octopus in that time.

or may be you haven't been exposed to it yet ? Any chance this might be related to fact that you only started dancing fairly recently ?

Given the general tone of your posts I'd say you're suffering from accute intermediatis...

Yes, you are quite right, I might not have been exposed to it yet, I have only been dancing MJ for 10 months or so. My point, for what it's worth, was that I think in phrases of 16 beats because this helps me, and I am genuinely baffled at the thought of a phrase lasting 32 beats. I could try to explain why, however, my previous attempts have not gone done too well...

I'm not sure whether I have intermediatis or not, maybe we'll have to have a dance someday and you can give a full diagnosis The general tone of posts on this forum seem to be fairly aggressive to be honest, so I might try to keep my opinions (as MJ naive as they may be) to myself lest they be jumped on and crushed.

Dan

[David Bailey]

I'm not sure whether I have intermediatis or not, maybe we'll have to have a dance someday and you can give a full diagnosis The general tone of posts on this forum seem to be fairly aggressive to be honest, so I might try to keep my opinions (as MJ naive as they may be) to myself lest they be jumped on and crushed.

I love the term "intermediatitis".

No-one - I guarantee - will have a go at you for expressing an opinion. This is a dance discussion forum, after all, and no-one knows everything. No, not even me.


But occasionally, people do tend to express their opinions as The One True Way, and that does tend to put other people's backs up a bit. Sometimes, new intermediate dancers are very confident and sure - I was, waaay back when I was a newbie.

And it can take you many years of hard work to destroy that confidence

[MartinHarper]

Simple, the intro to "Crazy" by Gnarls Berkeley lasts 5 beats. 6 beats is the time taken from the beginning of the song to the first "I remember". I don't think you can change positions 3 times in an Octopus in that time.

You may be underestimating just how deathly slow some people prefer their Modern Jive music.

[Caro]

Yes, you are quite right, I might not have been exposed to it yet, I have only been dancing MJ for 10 months or so.
(...)
I'm not sure whether I have intermediatis or not, maybe we'll have to have a dance someday and you can give a full diagnosis

I'm afraid the first diagnosis of intermediatitis is done on this very forum. As opposed to hotshotitis which is best diagnosed at a dance venue (well, apart in my case for the latter, but I'm a dancical exception).
Occasionally, there are false positives of intermediatitis that can be re-diagnosed at a dance venue, but those are extremely rare.

For your information the diagnosis is based on the following equation, which for obvious reasons we'll call the Equation de Caro :
[(Number of One Truth Statements - willingness to acknowledge possibility of any of those OTS being inaccurate) ^tone of post ] / (years started dancing x years on this forum) = indice de Caro
The highest the indice, the more severe the intermediatitis.
Incidentally it is always found as well that Indice de Caro >> rep total²
(The dimensional analysis here is quite complex obviously so I'll leave that for another time.)

The general tone of posts on this forum seem to be fairly aggressive to be honest, so I might try to keep my opinions (as MJ naive as they may be) to myself lest they be jumped on and crushed.

No they're not !
In fact most often the tone of replies are in line with the tone of the original post. There may be a clue there

or as DJ said in his own (new) mellow mod style :

But occasionally, people do tend to express their opinions as The One True Way, and that does tend to put other people's backs up a bit. Sometimes, new intermediate dancers are very confident and sure - I was, waaay back when I was a newbie.

And it can take you many years of hard work to destroy that confidence

So seriously, though... if you find people are being harsh at you, just try and acknowledge from time to time that what you post is your opinion / understanding and might be mislead. And when you turn out to be the next Amir... well I'll probably shut up.

[NZ Monkey]

And it can take you many years of hard work to destroy that confidence

So very true. I try my best to do so in a friendly and efficient manner though.

6 beats is the time taken from the beginning of the song to the first "I remember". I don't think you can change positions 3 times in an Octopus in that time.

Well, the move as I know it only changes places twice and that is possible in 6 beats.

That said, it'd take some pretty tight footwork to do it comfortably to that song but not impossible. Certainly it's doable to slower songs.

Fair enough, I wouldn't use that terminology myself and I haven't heard anyone else (dance teacher or musician) use it either, maybe things are different wherever you dance.

I recommend taking one of Amirs workshops on musicality if ever get a chance. Other teachers with fine reputations also offer similar ones from time to time, such as Frank or David and Lily Barker although I've never had the privilege of taking them myself.

For what it's worth, the phrasing I've described appears to me to be pretty much universally accepted. Or at least on three continents and a number of islands. As I've said before I believe the definitions used by musicians are a little different, but are not terribly applicable here.

Also for what it's worth, the definition I've provided isn't hard and fast either. There are exceptions even in some pop tracks. There is at least one song on my iPod that has 32 beat major phrases with a 4 beat bridge between each one. Similarly, there is an AC/DC song that simply misses a beat in one bar. Situations like these are not common however.

Nothing wrong with that difference, so please don't get bitchy with the small print.

A difference of opinion is one thing. Telling someone outright that they're wrong* and then giving them information that directly contradicts very well established dance theory is another thing entirely.

I'm not being bitchy (well, trying not to anyway). I'm calling out a claim so that I can understand where you're coming from. It isn't personal, and nobody's going to hold a grudge.

*And I'm not sure if he was or not...I tend to lightly skim over Lee's posts as I find them hard to read sometimes so I didn't bother checking