One for the veterans: Is WCS going the way of Lindy ?

[TA Guy]

This is actually inspired by a thread in TOP, but not being a member there, I had to register and now apparently have to wait to be approved by 'The Management'. Bit of a hotshotty forum obviously , which brings me nicely to my point...

Back in the day, Lindy was the 'second dance'. Often there would be large'ish groups of Lindy dancers at MJ freestyles, weekenders often had second rooms for Lindy, good Lindy teachers like Andy and Rena were in demand etc. Tho this synergy still exists in hotspots, basically Lindy is no longer the 'second dance' in the MJ world.
The reasons for that are prolly multiple and quite complex to do with changing music and styles etc. but one major reason that I don't think anyone can doubt, is that there was some friction created by the attitude of the MJ'ers of the time who moved to Lindy. This attitude could best be described as 'looking down the nose at MJ'. This friction eventually manifested itself by a "why don't you sod off to your own freestyles" attitude amongst many MJ'ers.

There are uncomfortable parallels between that friction in the MJ/Lindy scene of ten years+ ago and the friction explained in this WCS hotshot thread;
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/land ... shots.html
and the current MJ/WCS scene.

Is history going to repeat itself ? Is WCS going to follow the Lindy path and more or less vanish from the MJ world ?

[Andy McGregor]

Is history going to repeat itself ? Is WCS going to follow the Lindy path and more or less vanish from the MJ world ?

I have changed my mind on this one. About a year ago I said;

IMHO WCS is the new Lindy for MJers.

However, I really don't see WCS at MJ freestyles in the way I used to witness Lindy Hoppers a few years ago.

I think that WCS is developing it's own scene. It is fed by MJ, I'm in no doubt about that. But it isn't trying to share a room with it.

[Martin]

If anything I would say WCS has less chance than Lindy of being around in any numbers in the future.

Lindy had it's own strong feed, built up independant of MJ, with the likes of Simon Selmon doing his stuff, and Lindy weekenders with Frankie Manning and team, doing there bit, before MJ had thier own weekenders.
There was as well a feed from MJ, but not exclusively.

Tango and Salsa, also have thier own independant culture and feed, and although at times, are the "in thing" with some of the MJ dancers and takes a feed from MJ, they will not fall down without an MJ feed.

It seems to be that WCS has an almost exclusive MJ feed, and not too many "top dance teachers" who teach it week in and week out.
That is not to say there are not lovely teachers, but there is not anyone of the likes of Jordon and Tatiana, teaching week in and week out in the UK.
It could be that after a year of doing WCS, if you are a good MJ dancer, you might well have supassed your local WCS teacher and then be looking for more.... or looking at Salsa, Tango or the next popular flavour.

But ... but... WCS is here to stay, you might be saying - Well, yes I do think it is here to stay, but do remember it was here when I started MJ in 1994.. It just had a lower profile, there were still people doing WCS in freestyle events, but not many people recognised it. A WCS class was taught in Crawley 1996 replacing the intermediate MJ class - but the interest was low.

So, WCS has been around for a long time, even in the UK, it seems to be popular at the moment, certainly if you believe what you read on the forum.

How long it will be a popular flavour... hmmm ... I guess until the next flavour comes along.

[mikeyr]

It seems to be that WCS has an almost exclusive MJ feed, and not too many "top dance teachers" who teach it week in and week out.

I disagree, I Run the regular Monday Night Class at Trent Park taught by Lee Easton. Of our regular 45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community

That is not to say there are not lovely teachers, but there is not anyone of the likes of Jordon and Tatiana, teaching week in and week out in the UK.

There arent many in the US in the class of J&T, Mario, Robert & Deborah and Kyle & Sarah either!

We have Lee & Syd, Cat & Paul at the top closely followed by a host of others up and coming, there is no shortage of talent in certain areas and as the WCS community grows.........

It could be that after a year of doing WCS, if you are a good MJ dancer, you might well have supassed your local WCS teacher and then be looking for more.... or looking at Salsa, Tango or the next popular flavour.

Oh boy you couldnt be more wrong there!

The WCS Brits (inc Caro) have had a storming year on the US competition circuit we have been bringing the silverware home by the bucket load in all the divisions up to and inc Advanced, true some of them came from MJ like myself But the best ones DON'T!!! and most have relegated Mj to the minimum if not completely given it up!

WCS weekenders are being run as part of the C&W dance(its more complimentary IMHO), we'll have had two this year. Plus more & more Brits are going to US conventions because their relative cheapness!

[Gav]

I've been thinking about giving it a try and

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach)

doesn't put me off, the same could be said of Lindy and AT, but I managed it in the end, however this

especially if they continue to MJ.

and this

some of them came from MJ like myself But the best ones DON'T!!! and most have relegated Mj to the minimum if not completely given it up!

are the sort of comments that make me not want to bother.

[Gerry]

Gav
Please give it a try. We are truly a friendly bunch.
I for one still dance MJ, I must admit that since I increased the amount of WCS dancing and reduced the amount of MJ I have received alot of compliments saying that my dancing has improved.

I have been told that my WCS lead is bouncy , I have never been told that at MJ, thank god . The reason for this are down to my triple steps.

Hopefully with some more privates I will have ironed out this problem.

The unfortunate thing at most MJ events is that there really is not enough tracks that are WCS able for the beginners / early intermediates. I think the real advance bods such as Cat and Paul can dance to anything. I saw them in the boucy room at SP, they were brilliant with so many Mj'ivers all around them

[Martin]

45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.

45+ in London, does not shout out loud "a new revolution in dance"

It actually says to me, a typical Lindy class attendance. Which was kinda my point.

Lindy classes here are between 20 and 50 people normally, some excellent dancers, but hardly earth shattering in numbers.

[David Bailey]

I disagree, I Run the regular Monday Night Class at Trent Park taught by Lee Easton. Of our regular 45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.

That's still a lot of dependency. Also consider that a lot of the teachers in WCS seem to have moved from MJ.

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community

But, again, despite those efforts, you've still got nearly half of your customer base from MJ. Seems like a feed to me.

I think Martin's spot on with his points.

WCS in the UK is connected to MJ, much more so than dances such as salsa or AT. I doubt if more than 5% of ATers come from MJ, for example.

[Caro]

OK I am not a veteran per se as I wasn't dancing yet during the Lindy episode you are refering to, so I probably shouldn't post here, yet I can think of a couple of fundamental differences which make it hard for me to imagine that WCS is not on a sustained ascending path.

The first one is the music. Swing music is quite specific and has mostly (Stray don't flame me for this!) been written some time ago. Let's face it you don't hear good swing (in the context of this post I'll use swing music to mean lindy suitable) music in the current charts. So it takes a personal journey and growth to start listening and appreciating swing music. On the other hand, people find that they can WCS to most of the most popular tunes of today. So the entry into the WCS world is somewhat easier or more mundane if you want. (I don't deny that once that has happened there is probably a similar personal journey into blues, soul, R&B and even faster swing music).

The second one is the evolution of the dance (I won't go in the debate of the evolution of the dance and swing content and all that here). Let's be honest here, WCS isn't danced today in the mainstream scenes like it was in the 90's - and few would want to dance like this now. Incredibly inspirational dancers such as Kyle and Sarah and more recently Jordan and Tatiana have reached dancers from various backgrounds (thanks youtube) and made them want to do WCS (poll to follow on this actually). I don't deny that Lindy has got similar talented and inspirational dancers, but WCS performances are usually easier to understand by the masses than lindy one (again, the music thing - 'gross' musicality is much more easily spotted by non-dancers in WCS clips than in lindy clips). (Not saying either one is more musical than the other, just it's often harder to understand swing music and hence the dancing to it).


Others have answered on the scenes aspects of the question (i.e. not just MJ anymore), and a WCS scene is now developping on its own (re number of events that don't run on the back of MJ), so I'll leave it there.

[straycat]

The first one is the music. Swing music is quite specific and has mostly (Stray don't flame me for this!) been written some time ago. Let's face it you don't hear good swing (in the context of this post I'll use swing music to mean lindy suitable) music in the current charts.

Weeel - to be fair, t'is hard to flame the truth. (although flaming Thetruth was a forum pastime for a while :whistle

So it takes a personal journey and growth to start listening and appreciating swing music.

Or in many cases, it just takes the opportunity to hear truly amazing swing music. Which is an opportunity I believe a lot of people never get

[robd]

I disagree, I Run the regular Monday Night Class at Trent Park taught by Lee Easton. Of our regular 45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community

First things first, Mikey walks the walk in terms of his commitment to UK WCS given his effort and hard work in re-establishing Trent Park as a regular venue. Nonetheless I am really suprised at what he's written here on a number of counts
1 - Generalising everyone who dances MJ into some homogenous whole
2 - Deciding to take the easier route of not recruiting people because they're 'harder to teach' (I have no teaching experience so cannot say if such is true or not)
3 - Building a base around the local community is a laudable concept but is it sustainable?
4 - UK WCS, rightly or wrongly, suffers accusations of elitism from some MJ dancers and this does nothing but reinforce that perception

The WCS Brits (inc Caro) have had a storming year on the US competition circuit we have been bringing the silverware home by the bucket load in all the divisions up to and inc Advanced, true some of them came from MJ like myself But the best ones DON'T!!! and most have relegated Mj to the minimum if not completely given it up!

Well, perhaps the most consistently successful competitor (in relative terms) this year is Foxy Funkster and he's still a Ceroc teacher (and with no intention of giving it up AFAIK) Paul W has had a storming year but I think that was to be expected.

I know you personally have taken the decision to give up MJ to concentrate on WCS Mike and I know some others have done the same. It's a personal choice and shouldn't be criticised either way. It's not something I plan on doing as I don't believe it would benefit my WCS.

[MartinHarper]

It actually says to me, a typical Lindy class attendance. Which was kinda my point.

I think it's more that Modern Jive is the exception in having such large classes.

[NZ Monkey]

I disagree, I Run the regular Monday Night Class at Trent Park taught by Lee Easton. Of our regular 45+ members over half that number have not come from a MJ background, they come from a range of dances and complete beginners.

My classes, although smaller in numbers, see something similar. We actually have more people with a Salsa background than a MJ one, and a good proportion of them are also absolute beginners.

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach), especially if they continue to MJ. All of my efforts have been centered around building a base from the local community

I think they often have different needs than others. If you find them so much harder to teach perhaps you should look at expanding your own teaching style rather than writing them off however.

Honestly, is it any wonder so many MJers dislike WCS dancers when some of the WCS teachers have attitudes like this? Especially when they express their opinions so "diplomatically" on a public MJ forum.

[David Bailey]

I think it's more that Modern Jive is the exception in having such large classes.

I've never encountered large classes outside MJ.

Every other dance is taught in small classes, in the round, almost without exception.

[David Bailey]

Honestly, is it any wonder so many MJers dislike WCS dancers when some of the WCS teachers have attitudes like this? Especially when they express their opinions so "diplomatically" on a public MJ forum.

Why? He's telling the truth as he sees it, what's wrong with that?

Maybe MJ-ers, who are obviously conditioned to expect certain things from a class, are more difficult to teach in other styles. It's plausible.

[Caro]

I dont actively recruit Mjers (as theyre harder to teach)

I can't possibly believe that complete beginners who have no dance background whatsoever would be easier to teach than MJ-ers.
Yes MJ-ers have a set of 'bad habits' (in the context of WCS) that they need to change when they dance WCS, but they are already able to move with a partner, on music, and are used to freestyle (i.e. not bugged if there isn't a routine) - which is a massive amount of skills that we take for granted once we're past the beginner stage.

Line or jazz / hip-hop dancers are probably the ones who look the best the quickest, but they have a lot to learn on connection (if they haven't done any partner dance) and moving with someone else at the end of their hand.

All other partner dancers will have some 'bad habits' or gaps in their skills (freestyle for example) due to their background, but I can't imagine they would be that much easier to fight than MJ-er's.

Now as to class / teaching / social scene expectations, I can understand MJ-ers might be the more demanding pupils given the standardisation and ease of approach of the MJ classes (i.e. Ceroc's well proven concepts).

[NZ Monkey]

Why? He's telling the truth as he sees it, what's wrong with that?

Why is it any surprise that MJer’s dislike WCSer’s when they come out with stuff like this on a regular basis? I think you can answer that yourself David Bailey.

It may be his view, but given the result of commentary like this is only negative for the WCS scene I question the wisdom of expressing it at all. Unless of course, it isn’t the wellbeing of WCS that motivates such comments in the first place.

Maybe MJ-ers, who are obviously conditioned to expect certain things from a class, are more difficult to teach in other styles. It's plausible.

I think MJ’ers have a number of bad habits for WCS, but then so do Salsa dancers. So do Lindy dancers. So does practically everyone else, although I’ll concede that the differences are more extreme in some cases than others.

I also think if you’re finding it so much harder to teach a group of people with an identifiable common background and common issues, the burden is on the teacher to find a way to reach them. Note that this is irrespective of what that background actually is (be in MJ, Salsa….etc).

It’s plausible that it genuinely is harder to teach MJ dancers something for the reasons you’ve specified but I think it’s a stretch for the teacher to blame the Mj’ers themselves before looking long and hard at what they’re doing. If Mikeyr has been teaching WCS for 15 years and still found the same I’d be a lot more lenient in my criticism. To the best of my knowledge this isn’t the case however.

[Minnie M]

This is actually inspired by a thread in TOP..............

Apologies for asking this but "What is TOP"

[DJ Andy]

Apologies for asking this but "What is TOP"

'The Other Place' - (MJDA Forum)?

[Whitebeard]

'The Other Place' - (MJDA Forum)?

They can't (or won't) let me in, allegedly because I have an AOL internet address. Yet this forum, also powered by vBulletin, can. Hmmmm ...

I can't even read - let alone post. How elitist is that ???