Correct response to sabotage?

[David Bailey]

Don't worry about it.

Although there is a difference of opinion there are only a handful of social dancers that will hijack/sabotage and the like and they will work you out, you don't have to work them out. It will take them 15-20 seconds to know whether you are up for it or not and will then act accordingly.

Very good point - I mean, it's not like it happens all the time or something.

All I wanted to do at the start of this thread was to clear up some differences in behaviour... it's kind of snowballed since then

And the reason I wanted to differentiate was because I have different attitudes to different types of behaviour:
- I'm happy with play and interpretation, and happy to encourage it.
- I'm not keen on hijacking unless done superbly well - but that's personal preference.
- I'm really against sabotage, because I think it's selfish and disruptive.

[ant]

• There are plenty of superb, top-notch followers don't play, and don't want to (example: Lily B)
• Then there are top-notch followers who will play if given space, but are just happy not to, if no space is given (example: CeeCee).
• Then there are top-notch followers who will interpret and play as much as possible, but will still never disrupt the lead (example: Plum).

{snip grovelly Icey Stuff}

Mr Bailey on a point of order.

Why is it that I mention one follower and I get accused of grovelling and you mention three followers and thats all right.

AND

not only that you have the cheek to attribute the quote to me.

[martingold]

Mr Bailey on a point of order.

Why is it that I mention one follower and I get accused of grovelling and you mention three followers and thats all right.

AND

not only that you have the cheek to attribute the quote to me.

probably cos your an easy target ant lol

[Jay Jay]

How can you lead or follow in a world where 50% of resonable people disagree with you? I mean where do you get the confidence to go out and do what you think is right?

If you are the jim I think you are....I have danced with you a few times and I don't think you need to worry at all, we have had some brilliant dances together. You will always find people however good they are that you just don't gel with, I wouldn't look too deeply in to it, if you enjoy dancing with a certain person just keep them on your hit list and avoid the others you don't feel comfortable with, I know I do.

[dave the scaffolder]

Unfortunatly I think this really does matter. If you consistently have reasonable people, who can't agree about fundamental issuses then you have a problem.

I have this problem. I need to feel like I'm doing it properly, I need to feel like I know what my follower wants (in broad terms). I need to know where I stand. I need a conceret position for where I can say this is leading.

How can you lead or follow in a world where 50% of resonable people disagree with you? I mean where do you get the confidence to go out and do what you think is right?

jim you are over analysing this mate, different things work for different people.

These are not fundamental issues, these issues are fairly high up on the dance skills scale, by discussing these issues we get an idea of how people feel about it. This is the beauty of dance.

Little experiment here for you my lovely sit out a couple of dances at your next venue and observe the dances. Every couple will be interpreting the music differently and dancing differently. You may think the dancers can all hear different tunes. It is all in the interpretation of the moves and the music. Look at how people perform a first move, there will be subtle, or even massive, differences in their own interpretation. None of the interpretations are wrong, just different.

Key words here mate are.....Different interpretations.
Dont beat yourself up over who is right or wrong, everyone is right. Just dance and enjoy it, smile, sweat and flirt and the dance Oyster shall be yours mate. Dont think, react and enjoy, dance like you are naked in your bathroom, dance like you and your partner are the only people in the room.

DTS XXX XXX

[martingold]

jim you are over analysing this mate, different things work for different people.

These are not fundamental issues, these issues are fairly high up on the dance skills scale, by discussing these issues we get an idea of how people feel about it. This is the beauty of dance.


Key words here mate are.....Different interpretations.
Dont beat yourself up over who is right or wrong, everyone is right. Just dance and enjoy it, smile, sweat and flirt and the dance Oyster shall be yours mate. Dont think, react and enjoy, dance like you are naked in your bathroom, dance like you and your partner are the only people in the room.

DTS XXX XXX

once again mr scafolder you have hit the nail right on the head me old mate
Jim take notice of this man you might think he is talking a load of old B%$£it then when you read it properly you will see he is totally correct and has actually unlike the rest of us answered your question

[StokeBloke]

once again mr scafolder you have hit the nail right on the head me old mate
Jim take notice of this man you might think he is talking a load of old B%$£it then when you read it properly you will see he is totally correct and has actually unlike the rest of us answered your question

If you're finding DTS's advice hard to pick out from the Welsh loveliness, you just need to install WelshFilter 2.1.2 onto your browser. That will parse the text through a complicated linguistic algorithm and remove all the Valley Chatter. Presto! Understandable advice from the Welsh dancefloor terrorist

[dave the scaffolder]

Err thanks Stokie, I think.

DTS XXX XXX

[marcusj]

I hope to go to Stevenage tonight Mr DTS - and your ar*se will get a swift spanking if you so much as try any acts of hijacking or sabotage - be warned - that is unless you fancy a good spanking !

[dave the scaffolder]

I hope to go to Stevenage tonight Mr DTS - and your ar*se will get a swift spanking if you so much as try any acts of hijacking or sabotage - be warned - that is unless you fancy a good spanking !

Busy night for me then tonight. Going to help frolicolis and get a good ar*e spanking as well.

Stone me I am getting moist here.

Off down to the local Archery shop in a minute to spend some money afore the bast*rd tax man gets hold of it.

DTS XXX XXX

[Lory]

You will always find people however good they are that you just don't gel with, I wouldn't look too deeply in to it,

[whitetiger1518]

To get back to topic (ish):

I will usually only play with leaders that I know like playing.

Last night was an exception - a dancer I didn't know let me play as much as I wanted - I was just doing the occasional wiggle etc to emphasis breaks, but he twigged that I was listening to something in the music and gave me room and time to play so I started embellishing a few moves. I don't think he was a beginner but I haven't been to that venue for a while, so he might have been. Whoever he was it was superb, maybe the track was right and inspiration hit, because every time he left room for me to play a move presented itself. When the track stopped I got a Wow, that was great - and the feeling was totally reciprocated!


The only move that I conciously stop is a catapult - I'm not particularly fond of them, and if I get too many in a row, then I get very dizzy. However, if you let me stop you half way through, then I have a move or two as alternate versions that you might like as an adventure.

Oh and I just don't do drops at all as I am not physically strong enough!


Cheers Whitetiger

[StokeBloke]

Oh and I just don't do drops at all as I am not physically strong enough!

Great to hear you're having fun. It's great when it comes out of the blue like that isn't it.

Drops. Completely up to you of course, but you do not need to be physically strong to do many drops. If it's something that you would like to explore then I'd suggest getting yourself onto a dips/drops workshop. The vast majority of it is in the technique, of course it's so much easier if both dancers know what they're doing. That way the follow will take the vast majority of her own weight, and the lead (by being in the correct stance) will be able to easily bring her back to her feet. The other thing is, you don't have to drop/be dropped right to the floor for a drop to feel beautiful for both dancers.

Up to you, thought I'd mention it though

[~Jo~]

Hey guys, I'm only just joined up so apologies if my input doesn't resonate!

I don't know what skill level of leads your aiming this at, but I'm assuming you mean when a follow sabotages an experienced lead? I mean, really....some of the guys I dance with, they don't signal, they don't do the move correctly (stepping back, the right hand hold etc). Or..they do part of a move and then completley forget the rest of it and will literally stop in the middle of the dance unless I take over the lead to finish the move and give them enough time to re-think the next one. I dance with men who grip my hand like they want to detach it form my body...I dance with men who 'cop a feel' when they like, or men who just dance so strangely with their own way of doing the moves that I just don't get it. In these situations, sometimes I feel the need to sabotage, especially if it's because the mans lead is actually causing me physical pain lol. Also, I get a lot of guys who are beginners trying to drop me, when they know that drops havent been covered in our classes yet. So...I put my foot down and I stop the move. I don't know if you guys think thats not a good thing for me to do. But the way I see it is....yeah we're follows but, we still have the right to enjoy the dance with the man and put our foot down or change a move if we're uncomfrotable with it. Obviously thats just one side of it....just adding my experience of it to the pot

Drops. Completely up to you of course, but you do not need to be physically strong to do many drops.

But you do have to have a strong core and good leg muscles. For a lot of the drops the lady is taking the weight over her leg, and she needs to use her core to life herself up, otherwise she pulls too much on the man and can cuase them both an injury. When I first tried a drop, I got down there...bu my stomach was too weak to support me back up, resulting in the guy needing to use all of his strength to pull me back up. So I would say to a degree your body needs to be strong, even if you're the lady.

[martingold]

Hey guys, I'm only just joined up so apologies if my input doesn't resonate!

nah jump right in none of us really know what we are talking about half the time so you have as much right to put your bit in as well

I don't know what skill level of leads your aiming this at, but I'm assuming you mean when a follow sabotages an experienced lead? I mean, really....some of the guys I dance with, they don't signal, they don't do the move correctly (stepping back, the right hand hold etc). Or..they do part of a move and then completley forget the rest of it and will literally stop in the middle of the dance unless I take over the lead to finish the move and give them enough time to re-think the next one. I dance with men who grip my hand like they want to detach it form my body...I dance with men who 'cop a feel' when they like, or men who just dance so strangely with their own way of doing the moves that I just don't get it. In these situations, sometimes I feel the need to sabotage, especially if it's because the mans lead is actually causing me physical pain lol. Also, I get a lot of guys who are beginners trying to drop me, when they know that drops havent been covered in our classes yet. So...I put my foot down and I stop the move. I don't know if you guys think thats not a good thing for me to do. But the way I see it is....yeah we're follows but, we still have the right to enjoy the dance with the man and put our foot down or change a move if we're uncomfrotable with it. Obviously thats just one side of it....just adding my experience of it to the pot

I dont know where you dance but if thats you true findings i would find somewhere that the men (or leads) respect the follows and or learn to dance
the leads where you are obviously have never been taught properly and need to learn some simple respect
most venues wouldn't put up with men "copping a feel" regularly they would soon be sorted out by the regular ladies

But you do have to have a strong core and good leg muscles. For a lot of the drops the lady is taking the weight over her leg, and she needs to use her core to life herself up, otherwise she pulls too much on the man and can cuase them both an injury. When I first tried a drop, I got down there...bu my stomach was too weak to support me back up, resulting in the guy needing to use all of his strength to pull me back up. So I would say to a degree your body needs to be strong, even if you're the lady.

to some extent what you are saying is true but
a lot of the drops can be done if executed correctly by the lead (and as stokie says you dont need to go to the floor) without the lead or the follow having to exert much strength at all in either direction its a matter of the lead getting into a good "A" frame and makig sure the follows center of gravity is in the correct place

[David Bailey]

Hey guys, I'm only just joined up so apologies if my input doesn't resonate!

Brave woman!

I don't know what skill level of leads your aiming this at, but I'm assuming you mean when a follow sabotages an experienced lead?

No, skill level isn't really an issue, to me. Although if it were an issue it'd be the other way round - in that it's worse to disrupt a beginner than an experienced dancer, as a beginner leader's overall confidence is likely to be lower anyway, so if he's thrown off he may find it more difficult to recover.

I mean, really....some of the guys I dance with, they don't signal, they don't do the move correctly (stepping back, the right hand hold etc). Or..they do part of a move and then completley forget the rest of it and will literally stop in the middle of the dance unless I take over the lead to finish the move and give them enough time to re-think the next one.

Actually, I'd say that's yet another class of behaviour - "backleading".

Yes, most beginner leads are rubbish. I certainly was. Don't say it.

And, during a class, there's an argument to say that backleading is occasionally necessary, as a memory-jogger if nothing else. But being a purist, I'd say that in social dancing, if the leader doesn't lead, then the follower shouldn't try to help - as it only reinforces bad habits.

In these situations, sometimes I feel the need to sabotage, especially if it's because the mans lead is actually causing me physical pain lol.

Self-defense is not sabotage.

I'd fully support any action taken to avoid pain, up to and including walking away in the middle of a dance. But I'd recommend telling the leader - I know, it's difficult, but a lot of leaders simply don't realise what they're doing. Certainly, if they're stupid enough persist in inflicting pain after being told, you should not ever dance with them again.

I'd also support anti-perve and anti-smellie actions. But again, those aren't sabotage, they're etiquette.

Also, I get a lot of guys who are beginners trying to drop me, when they know that drops havent been covered in our classes yet. So...I put my foot down and I stop the move. I don't know if you guys think thats not a good thing for me to do.

Refusing a drop should always be an option, that comes under the "self-defence" heading.

Complicated, isn't it?

[~Jo~]

Phew,

Well, I'm relieved thats not (bad)sabotage then, because I did think I was acting within my rights at the time lol.

The teaching where I'm at is good, but limited in variety. The problem with the men where I am is they go up to their more experienced friends and say "Show me a drop" and then waltz onto the dance floor 10 minutes later to try it out on the first lady they ask

Also, I don't think the women are very experienced where I am either, so I've not seen any of this 'showy' sabotaging....just the whole 'neccessary for personal safety/self respect as a woman' reasons lol.

Putting myself in the position of a lead, I could see how it is disconcerting if a woman suddenly decides to break away and add her own things in, purely just to show off when you were planning something (or ignoring as other people have said). I certainly wouldn't do it with a lead who was a beginner...and I never CAN do it with a more experienced man cos they're just too dang manly with their lead to let me lol.

[HelenB]

Putting myself in the position of a lead, I could see how it is disconcerting if a woman suddenly decides to break away and add her own things in, purely just to show off when you were planning something (or ignoring as other people have said). I certainly wouldn't do it with a lead who was a beginner...and I never CAN do it with a more experienced man cos they're just too dang manly with their lead to let me lol.

Thinking back to when I started MJ, I remember adding in stuff without even considering the lead . It took me some time to realise the lead is the "frame", the resulting dance "the picture" and any embellishments are "elements of shading" and not always necessary for a pretty piece of art

And as others have mentioned, for reasons of self preservation, it is always OK to say no and halt the move

[dave the scaffolder]

One small point that seem's to have been missed here pips.

We are only SOCIAL DANCERS, we are not professional dancers. We do this for fun and enjoyment, start over thinking things and the enjoyment will fade.

If you enjoy a hobby, you will get better at it just because you enjoy it and not see it as a chore.

This is only my humble opinion but I have allways split dancing into 2 camps.

1 The technically expert dancers who learn the moves superbly and dance correctly, every dance is perfect technique and marvellous.

2 The natural or instinctive dancers, these know the moves but interprate them with their own style, flair and campness, these dancers make sh1t up as they go along, they love the connection and feel of the dance. They feel the music in the very marrow of their soul, unconventional and a little bit scary.

IMHO canp 2 are the wet knickers type of dances that leave you breathless and panting for more.

Just my opinion folks, not gospel, just my take on things. Relax and go with it you may surprise yourself.

This is a male, mostly, lead dance, however the leader invites the follower to lead, up to her if she accepts or not, some of my best dances have been with followers who do not accept my lead. This is the heads up moment when sparkle appears and the room narrows down to you and your partner. Does not happen very often, but when it does, embrace it and step out of your skin and soar like an Eagle on the dance floor. Do not over think things.

Give it large and be happy then your dancing can not help but improve enormousley.

My view only pips, feel free to slap the sh1t out of me.

DTS XXX XXX

[~Jo~]

Thinking back to when I started MJ, I remember adding in stuff without even considering the lead . It took me some time to realise the lead is the "frame", the resulting dance "the picture" and any embellishments are "elements of shading" and not always necessary for a pretty piece of art

Yeah I get the urge to do that sometimes. Sometimes you're dancing with someone (and this applies to guys and gals) who just isn't 'feeling' the music. I think instinctly, with some types of music and some beats 'workin it' just comes naturally. Sometimes you're with a partner who misses soo many oppurtunities to really rev the dancing up. I guess then, its just more about finding a lead/follow you're more in sync with than trying to do something about it (if you're a gal)?

If I were a man and my lady decided to start breaking off, I'd just have to make sure she didn't do it again . If she didn't like my style of dancing and my leading....(taking away am i pervy/jerky/bouncy/totallydull lol) then she could always say no to dancing with me...whaddya think?