MJ lead/follow conventions

[David Bailey]

Because people don't listen to me when I explain it to them.
http://www.mjda.org/forum/showthread.php?t=543.

Blimey, I thought you were dead

[TA Guy]

Blimey, I thought you were dead

Me too!

[straycat]

Because people don't listen to me when I explain it to them.

Nah. I've read all those points, but I simply don't agree with all of them (for example - I make a fair bit of use of counter-balance when dancing. Obviously I learned much of it in Lindy, but I was using it in MJ before that, still do, and it's a great technique to have at one's disposal)

Oh - and a tiny nitpick - while Lindy does have a 6-count standard in its arsenal, for the most part, it's an 8-count dance.

[jim]

.

If you are getting to the point that you are beginning to feel that dancing alone is an option then something is going very wrong.



Why is that a different thread? Isn't all following 'active following'?

I think the difference between you and me is that I think dancing on your own is easy and dancing with someone else is hard.


Active following is very rare actually [Depending on your definition of course].

I haven't come across it in 3 years of ballroom. I've only come across it once in three 'on and off' years of salsa.

Even if you disagree with what I just said. I would of thought that everyone can see from SCD that there's no active following in waltz, foxtrot or quickstep.

[jim]

Jim it sounds like you're looking for some exact formula that will get the same reaction every time and I doubt that this is possible, and even if it was it wouldn't be what I'd want when dancing.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

Actually I'm trying to do the opposite. I'm trying to understand the different reactions I get and learn how to work with them so I gain a fuller understanding of the different types of and follower there are.

[bigdjiver]

I was wondering how it would work out if the lady choreographed the dance by calling out the next move?

"First" - man leads first move
"Yo" - Yo-Yo
"Cat" - catapult
etc

[Agente Secreto]

Actually I'm trying to do the opposite. I'm trying to understand the different reactions I get and learn how to work with them so I gain a fuller understanding of the different types of and follower there are.

Good luck, I think that you're going to be disappointed since there are simply too many variables. The same reaction that you might see from 2 different follows could indicate widely different causes or interpretations and you'll never know one way or the other. On any given day I can dance with the same follow to the same track and can get widely different reactions to what I do. This is one of the things that you probably need to expect in MJ since it is simply less rigid (and so more accessible) than my limited experience of ballroom.

Personally I just try to roll with it - I've found that if I think about all of it too deeply my own dancing just deteriorates and then I get a reaction from the follow that I don't want - they avoid me....... I've thought about this aspect quite a lot recently since I'd not been dancing regularly for a combination of reasons and when I did I'd started overanalysing what I was doing and why it wasn't working like it did before and guess what - things just seemed to get worse. So my approach is relax and take each dance as it comes - an interchange between you and your partner that will be different every time.

Also, to pick up on the discussion with TB. In MJ, and in my very limited experience of Salsa, I've been lucky to dance with many ladies (and TB is one of them) that 'follow' very actively - often right up to the point of temporarily taking control (which I love by the way :waycool .

[jim]

Also, to pick up on the discussion with TB. In MJ, and in my very limited experience of Salsa, I've been lucky to dance with many ladies (and TB is one of them) that 'follow' very actively - often right up to the point of temporarily taking control (which I love by the way :waycool .

I haven't had this much in my limited salsa.


I agree about not over thinking espcally when you are actually dancing. But I'm thinking of this as post dance anaylsis, if you see what I mean.


I also agree that I'll never see all the possible variations, but I have a saying.

Try and then fail.

Try again and then fail better.

[bigdjiver]

Another point that occurs to me is that the lead takes on the left brain sort of functions, the logic of the dance, which can free the follower to let the right brain creativity shine through unhampered.

In this form of partnership the follow is absolutely what the dance is about. Every whim has to be noticed, anticipated and catered for, and the follow must be freed to go where the fancy takes them.

It is like a jamm sesion, the follow becomes the composer, the lead just writes the music down.

[StokeBloke]

I think the difference between you and me is that I think dancing on your own is easy and dancing with someone else is hard.


Active following is very rare actually [Depending on your definition of course].

I haven't come across it in 3 years of ballroom. I've only come across it once in three 'on and off' years of salsa.

Even if you disagree with what I just said. I would of thought that everyone can see from SCD that there's no active following in waltz, foxtrot or quickstep.

Jim, will you be at Skegness for Eclipse in a couple of weeks time? Because I feel that a lot of what is being discussed here is easy to show, difficult to describe. It also seems like you have been starved the pleasure of an active follow for FAR too long. It really is a revelation

[straycat]

Even if you disagree with what I just said. I would of thought that everyone can see from SCD that there's no active following in waltz, foxtrot or quickstep.

Mmmm - but I don't think any direct comparison there is particularly apt. To my knowledge, the ballroom & latin dances are (correct me if I'm wrong), generally taught as set, choreographed sequences, so are very heavy on technique and styling, and very light on improvisation. Pretty much the direct opposite of MJ in so many respects.

To address one of the main themes of this thread - the reason why it's so hard, if not impossible, to get a concensus of this topic is pretty simple.

Very little is taught in most MJ classes about the subject, and 'officially', it's generally a pretty ill-defined area.
On this forum, we have a lot of people who have worked pretty hard to improve their lead / follow / connection skills - but without any 'MJ standard' ways of doing so, we've learned from various different sources. Many have drawn from experience in different dances: eg Lindy, WCS, AT, ballroom, latin, blues etc, some from their own trial and error and experimentation, not to mention other sources, eg martial arts etc.

With all that lot thrown into the melting pot, you have a lot of very powerful techniques being bandied about - but it's not surprising some of these seem at odds with each other. In the end, we each use what we feel suits us best - there simply is no one right or wrong way - more like a whole host of right (and wrong) ways.

[MartinHarper]

Nah. I've read all those points, but I simply don't agree with all of them (for example - I make a fair bit of use of counter-balance when dancing. Obviously I learned much of it in Lindy, but I was using it in MJ before that, still do, and it's a great technique to have at one's disposal)

Advanced dancers, in every dance, deliberately break the conventions. Beginner dancers, in every dance, accidentally break the conventions. Intermediate dancers, in every dance, do both, often at the same time.

When you look around at other Modern Jive dancers, or dance with them, do they mostly make a fair bit of use of counter-balance, or do they mostly make little or no use of counter-balance?

[jim]

I’ve been having a bit of a revelations so bear with me…..

I’ve been thinking about the way some of you explain how you dance and then thinking about how I dance and then thinking about how that can create misunderstanding and conflict between dancers partners.

Last night I was thinking about who leads Rhythm. We’ve had the discussion before and we know it’s one of those subjects which will divide us. Yet it’s also basic and fundamental to the dance.

And I realized that I lead Rhythm and some of you guys don’t. In fact you do the opposite you try to lead the women in her rhythm.

I remember watching Jordan start a dance and put a woman straight into a shine and I thought this was really odd. But now I get it; he’s getting a feel for how she moves. So she can lead her the way she wants to be lead.

I do exactly the opposite! I get her in close so she can get a feel for how I move.

I just keep doing an arm jive, until I feel she’s locked on to me. And I sometimes I come across women style up the arm jive at the beginning and I always think why are you styling this up and not using it as a chance to connect? But now I know. They think they’re the picture and I’m the frame. And that I’m going to lead them in they’re rhythm.

Now I think I’m going to have to explain myself because I really do think some of us are on very different wave lengths and right now some of you are thinking why would you lead rhythm and what does that mean?

It means this; I don’t lead moves, I don’t even lead movements, I lead ‘emotion’. When I dance I’m trying to express emotions to my partner.

And I know some people don’t get this concept, cause I can see it in there eyes when we’re dancing.

Have you ever heard the expression, ‘that film moved me’ or ‘I was touch by what they did’? Comments like this show an intrinsic subconscious link between physical actions and emotional reactions.

So when I’m doing my moves I’m thinking movement = emotion.

So if I’m dancing with a very active stylish partner who essentially dancing in her own rhythm it means I’m excluded from the dance because I can’t express emotion to her.

At times like this to be blunt, guys like me feel that we’re having sex with a woman using a vibrator. – She’s creating her own emotions – lead / man not required.

Here’s somewhere we’re going to disagree; I believe a lead is composed of two things; what is done and how it’s it done. For me how it’s done is the important bit, it contains the all the emotional information.

Where as some of you I think believe a lead what is is done and how it’s done is up the follower, which is probably what brings the magic to your dances.

See this difference of opinion is going to create conflict.

This brings me on to styling up a ballroom hold. Women who style up a ballroom hold bug the sh*t of out me, and I’m not the only one. But the question is why?

I think this goes back to frame and picture. I think she thinks that I have essentially provided her a frame which she can now decorate as she sees fit. I’ve only just worked that out so Correct me if I’m wrong?

Now me on the other hand; if I lead a first move mambo, blues basic or similar. Then I’m saying is let’s dance together for a while, essentially let’s merge more fully into one person or I’m saying let’s re-connect lets get back on the same wave length.

Clearly a lot of crossed wires going on here.


Which brings me on to active following; no secret we all disagree here.

I literally think we have different definitions of what active following means.

Stoke bloke is suggesting that I need to be exposed to more active followers and yet I am with David Baileys in saying I don’t know more than 10 that can do it properly.

The difference in opinion to my mind comes from the different styles of lead follow relationships. Like Twirlie said, ‘isn’t all following active following’. Well I guess if you’re using frame picture analogue then yes I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

But active following with me ……well its best described as this.

I interpret the music, she interprets me.

To actively follow leads like me without disrupting the flow of the dance, she has to reinterpret the lead not the music.

It’s no good saying I’ve heard something in the music I’m going to stops. What about me? what about my footwork? I am I in a position to stop?
A woman actively following me has to be aware of my weight distribution and my ability to support her if she becomes active. – And that is hard! - respect to women who can do that.

Dancing is large are very varied please don’t assume am always dancing the way I’ve described whatever the dance, whatever the music. – I’m trying to simplify it.

Anyway I feel like I’m starting to understand where some of the disagreements I have come from and that’s the first part in learning to dance with different types of follower.

Hopefully by explaining my dancing system that might help some people understand where conflict might of arisen from in dances they’ve had.

[robd]

Very interesting post Jim. I did wonder if you were ever going to mention the music and where this fitted into the relationship but it snuck in eventually.

I'll re-read and digest a bit more before commenting further.

[Dottie]

Phew!
I finally understand what you've been talking about!

As one of my most favourite leads, was a little confused, but now I get it.

[David Bailey]

Blimey, are you related to Gadget?

It means this; I don’t lead moves, I don’t even lead movements, I lead ‘emotion’. When I dance I’m trying to express emotions to my partner.

Ummm, I'm pretty sure you're leading movements as well.

And I know some people don’t get this concept, cause I can see it in there eyes when we’re dancing.

Well, if a follower doesn't "get it", it's the leader's fault for not being clear enough.

At times like this to be blunt, guys like me feel that we’re having sex with a woman using a vibrator.

I thought of a funny answer to this, but then I'd have to take the thread upstairs.

Here’s somewhere we’re going to disagree; I believe a lead is composed of two things; what is done and how it’s it done. For me how it’s done is the important bit, it contains the all the emotional information.

Where as some of you I think believe a lead what is is done and how it’s done is up the follower, which is probably what brings the magic to your dances. [/font]

See this difference of opinion is going to create conflict.

Errr... it might, if I understood it...

I literally think we have different definitions of what active following means.

Probably. I'll not comment on it until I know what it means - I think it's maybe not a helpful term.

Stoke bloke is suggesting that I need to be exposed to more active followers and yet I am with David Baileys in saying I don’t know more than 10 that can do it properly.

My comment wasn't about "active following", it was about "sabotaging" - different things I believe.

[Agente Secreto]

Jim, like RobD I also think this is an interesting post. I don't think I share your reasoning in bits of it but I can see where you're coming from...........

....I realized that I lead Rhythm and some of you guys don’t. In fact you do the opposite you try to lead the women in her rhythm.

That's not what I mean. There are parts of the dance where I will definitely lead all of the rhythm (and I'll do so almost all of the time with inexperienced follows) and then there are parts where, should my follow choose to do something I'll respond to it. In doing this I'm not handing over the responsibility for leading anyone into anything just realising that my partner may often add just as much (and sometimes more) to the dance as I can.

So if I’m dancing with a very active stylish partner who essentially dancing in her own rhythm it means I’m excluded from the dance because I can’t express emotion to her.

At times like this to be blunt, guys like me feel that we’re having sex with a woman using a vibrator. – She’s creating her own emotions – lead / man not required.

I can see what you're trying to say I just don't share the view. It sounds as if the dance and its emotion is only going one way, from you to the follow. If that was happening in the bedroom then I'd fully expect the lady to come to bed with the BOB already running...... Dancing is social intercourse and just like the sexual variety it is far more exciting if your partner is actively involved and coming up with their own fun ideas........

The rest of the post about connection and active following I don't really get because it's only with follows that I've developed proper connection, and where we're actively engaged with each other, that any of the real interaction comes. In doing so I expect the follow to pay me the same attention that I pay her and that means sensing where my weight is and reacting to this just as I do to them. I've been twisted and hurt a couple of times by ladies trying out a move taught in class where they take control and try and turn me when my (considerable) bulk is moving in the opposite direction to the one they need me to. And don't get me going about the enforced body roll from the rear which if I tried it on a lady I'd be accused of perving...............

If I dance with someone and the connection is not there then I find myself playing a far more directive role and the dance is probably not as good for either of us. So I can see where you're coming from but I just think that there is room for the follow to show their 'emotion' in the dance as well.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[jim]

Very interesting post Jim. I did wonder if you were ever going to mention the music and where this fitted into the relationship but it snuck in eventually. quote]

Very difficult to get 'eveything' in. I didn't want to make the post any longer and start talking about latin styles and how they are losser and allow more expression etc....

[jim]

Phew!
I finally understand what you've been talking about!

As one of my most favourite leads, was a little confused, but now I get it.

Does that mean you can see it it the different lead styles, and that it's not just my imagination?

[jim]

That's not what I mean. There are parts of the dance where I will definitely lead all of the rhythm (and I'll do so almost all of the time with inexperienced follows) and then there are parts where, should my follow choose to do something I'll respond to it.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

I knew some one was going to say that.

Another difference, many men lead the rythm of new dancers. Again I almost do the opposite. - I let them get on with it and once the can do under their own steam I say good - now try it my way.