Correct response to sabotage?

[Gadget]

...If you don't ask and get a positive response you should not assume that you can just throw your partner into something regardless of how the music or rhythm takes you.

Regardless of the music, you should never be throwing your partner into any move - beginner moves or any others.

The more domineering, controlling and 'firm' the lead, then the more vital it is for them to ask the follower about dips and drops: It is unlikely that these stronger leads will be listening to the follower close enough to detect any hesitation or signals that could be construed as "sabotage" ~ and even if the signals of "oh ****, I don't want to be doing this..." are picked up on by the lead, then {assuming they are of the 'hate' attitude to sabotage} it is quite conceivable that the lead ignores them and throws the follower into the move.

Note that the follower may not want to do moves where the arms are raised too much or they have to spin too much - it's not only dips & drops that can be uncomfortable for the follower and their ability to sabotage can be self-preservation. Blocking this opportunity for them does not make you a good lead, no matter how well you do it or how successfully put them into/through a move.

[jim]

Perhaps these leads might look into Tango, I understand it is completely male led. The only input that the follow gets is the choice of her shoes

It has been suggested before .

[Agente Secreto]

Regardless of the music, you should never be throwing your partner into any move - beginner moves or any others.

The more domineering, controlling and 'firm' the lead, then the more vital it is for them to ask the follower about dips and drops: It is unlikely that these stronger leads will be listening to the follower close enough to detect any hesitation or signals that could be construed as "sabotage" ~ and even if the signals of "oh ****, I don't want to be doing this..." are picked up on by the lead, then {assuming they are of the 'hate' attitude to sabotage} it is quite conceivable that the lead ignores them and throws the follower into the move.

Note that the follower may not want to do moves where the arms are raised too much or they have to spin too much - it's not only dips & drops that can be uncomfortable for the follower and their ability to sabotage can be self-preservation. Blocking this opportunity for them does not make you a good lead, no matter how well you do it or how successfully put them into/through a move.

Gadget, don't disagree with your post but lets get things in perspective. Seeking explicit permission for dips and drops is a specific case - where it's not simply that the lead might do something the follow does not prefer, they could actually end up doing something that puts them in danger of life or limb. I always seek this permission, however, I have yet to ask a follow as I go onto the floor if she's OK if I spin her . I definitely don't believe it is possible for a lead to tease out of the follow if she's unable to do 'normal moves' - I'd expect to be told as has happaned on a couple of occasions with ladies who have weak ankles, or injured arms.

I do accept that self-preservation might be one reason for sabotage, however, in the case of the 'stronger' (or is it deaf, dumb and blind) leads you talk about above it is highly unlikely that even the most blatant message will persuade them they are doing any wrong. You just have to look at the floor on some normal class nights - men wrestling women into moves regardless.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[HelenB]

Seeking explicit permission for dips and drops is a specific case - where it's not simply that the lead might do something the follow does not prefer, they could actually end up doing something that puts them in danger of life or limb. I always seek this permission, however, I have yet to ask a follow as I go onto the floor if she's OK if I spin her . I definitely don't believe it is possible for a lead to tease out of the follow if she's unable to do 'normal moves' - I'd expect to be told as has happaned on a couple of occasions with ladies who have weak ankles, or injured arms.

I prefer to be asked about dips and drops but have had them performed (oo-er) on me without asking. I suppose what I'm saying is that I feel that I'm able to sabotage for safety should be.

Up to recently, I've been happy should this happen though I do tend to make a cheeky comment if they haven't asked. That's just me (my way of making them aware that some people aren't OK with not being asked)

With regards to your other point AS, at Eclipse I wasn't able to dance much and those dances I did have, had to be gentle. I didn't expect people to sense this so danced only with those leads I knew and, explained the situation as we made our way onto the dancefloor. It was a bit weird reading the rule book and I felt that I kinda took something away from the dance

I think from a leader's perspective, this can also be quite limiting. Sometimes when someone says you can't do something, it's the only thing you can think of doing (Don't think about pink elephants...)

I do accept that self-preservation might be one reason for sabotage, however, in the case of the 'stronger' (or is it deaf, dumb and blind) leads you talk about above it is highly unlikely that even the most blatant message will persuade them they are doing any wrong. You just have to look at the floor on some normal class nights - men wrestling women into moves regardless.

I can think of a few though to be honest I don't tend to see them at weekenders and tend to avoid at other times ...

I bet you're all thinking pink elephants...

[ant]

With regards to your other point AS, at Eclipse I wasn't able to dance much and those dances I did have, had to be gentle. I didn't expect people to sense this so danced only with those leads I knew and, explained the situation as we made our way onto the dancefloor. It was a bit weird reading the rule book and I felt that I kinda took something away from the dance

Don't think that way when you are recovering from an operation.

Personally I find it a big challenge to give a person a good dance when the are recovering from an injury or operation but at the same time be ultra gentle and 100% careful about their condition.

And yes you should tell people and as far as I am concerned it does not take anything away from the dance, it does not feel like you are having the rule book read and if anything the reverse is true as it creates an immediate connection that would otherwise take longer to be there.

We never got that dance at Eclipse but next time we are together recovered or not I would still love to have a dance with you.

[jim]

I know of more than one follower who has had an old injury aggravated by a dip or drop led unexpectedly, and not necessarily one of the 'risky' drops; such actions can have unintended consequences. I don't want to overstate the case, but continuing pain or discomfort, time away from dancing and even time off work are not unknown.

Please consider, it doesn't take very much to extend a little consideration to your partner

I try to make sure that this is one of the very first things I do when I dance with someone (new or familiar). Probably covered to death in other threads but it takes 20 seconds at the start of the dance to establish if the lady wants to dip/drop or not.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

I understand your point, but what is the difference between followers telling every lead they met that they don't like drops or every lead asking evey follower they if they're are happy with drops? – none it’s just a question of who does it.

If you’re not careful you end up with this wired conversation when you first meet a follower that goes something like this;

Hi, How long have you been dancing?
Do you do west coast?
Do you get dizzy when you spin?
Are you comfortable with dancing close?
Do you like drops?
Have you done Latin before
Have you done blues?
The list could go on……

And once the lady has finished answering all those questions there’ll be one thing she didn’t tell you.

I happy with drops; if I trust the lead.
I happy dancing close; if I like the lead.
I can dance to anything if; it’s led properly.

None of which she can answer until she’s actually danced with you.

And then you have to remember her preferances! From all the other women you’ve asked. – so basically I think it’s impratical.

I tend to weight up the follower and make and educated guess. The same way I do when I’m thinking about a close move, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out if she likes space, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out how long she’s been dancing.

[HelenB]

I tend to weigh up the follower and make an educated guess. The same way I do when I’m thinking about a close move, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out if she likes space, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out how long she’s been dancing.

I think we all do that to some extent. I know I certainly do (normally on the close moves :innocent

It's even nicer then when you make a surprising discovery and you have a great dance

[Agente Secreto]

I understand your point, but what is the difference between followers telling every lead they met that they don't like drops or every lead asking evey follower they if they're are happy with drops? – none it’s just a question of who does it.

If you’re not careful you end up with this wired conversation when you first meet a follower that goes something like this;

Hi, How long have you been dancing?
Do you do west coast?
Do you get dizzy when you spin?
Are you comfortable with dancing close?
Do you like drops?
Have you done Latin before
Have you done blues?
The list could go on……

And once the lady has finished answering all those questions there’ll be one thing she didn’t tell you.

I happy with drops; if I trust the lead.
I happy dancing close; if I like the lead.
I can dance to anything if; it’s led properly.

None of which she can answer until she’s actually danced with you.

And then you have to remember her preferances! From all the other women you’ve asked. – so basically I think it’s impratical.

I tend to weight up the follower and make and educated guess. The same way I do when I’m thinking about a close move, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out if she likes space, the same way I do when I’m trying to work out how long she’s been dancing.

Jim, now you're being silly. We all size our partners up as we dance, and it is about educated guesses without a doubt in normal dancing but dips and drops are different. As I dance I too will get a feeling about whether the lady likes eye contact, or being in close or any number of things but the only way you'll know if her back for instance can take a drop is when she screams in agony as you try one - a bit cavalier in my book.

Every single class I've been to for dips and drops has stressed that the first rule of action for the man is to ask - every woman and every dance. See Item 1 on the guys list on the following.

http://www.peterphillips.dj/dosdont.html

Now, I have often had ladies who have seen me dipping others when sitting down at the side and then when we dance open up by saying that they do not like/cannot do such moves. But unless this happens it is the lead's job to ask. And as to trusting the lead and not being able to know this until you've danced together, I rarely do dips and drops on the first dance with a new partner anyway.

I can feel a new thread coming. Been a long time I think since we explored dips 'n drops etiquette.


Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[MartinHarper]

See Item 1 on the guys list on the following.

http://www.peterphillips.dj/dosdont.html

The item you mention says: "Always Ask your partner if they're ok with drops, seducers, lifts etc". You will notice that simple low-risk dips are not on that list. I suspect that the dips that Jim knows fall into that category.

[Agente Secreto]

The item you mention says: "Always Ask your partner if they're ok with drops, seducers, lifts etc". You will notice that simple low-risk dips are not on that list. I suspect that the dips that Jim knows fall into that category.

Possibly, but anything that get the follow leaning to the side or back could cause damage, so that could include dips. Its just safer to ask, and in the Peter Philips dvds he makes this point very clearly...........

I've posted another thread to get some idea for how common it is that leads ask, or follows expect to be asked.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[jivecat]

Possibly, but anything that get the follow leaning to the side or back could cause damage, so that could include dips. Its just safer to ask, and in the Peter Philips dvds he makes this point very clearly...........

I've posted another thread to get some idea for how common it is that leads ask, or follows expect to be asked.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

I haven't looked at the thread yet but my feeling is that it has become a lot more common to get asked over the last few years, presumably after safety concerns started to get aired in workshops.