Intermediate Moves in Freestyle

[frolicols]

Recently (as the Ceroc bug burrows ever deeper into my brain) I have started going to multiple venues during the week to get my "fix". I've noticed that the standard and quality of intermediate moves taught differs from venue to venue.

I'm trying to add new intermediate moves into my repertoire, but I'm finding that I only really feel that the moves from one particular venue are suitable to add into freestyle.

What do you think the reason for this would be? My dancing level? The teacher? The cosmos?

[Maxine]

Recently (as the Ceroc bug burrows ever deeper into my brain) I have started going to multiple venues during the week to get my "fix". I've noticed that the standard and quality of intermediate moves taught differs from venue to venue.

I'm trying to add new intermediate moves into my repertoire, but I'm finding that I only really feel that the moves from one particular venue are suitable to add into freestyle.

What do you think the reason for this would be? My dancing level? The teacher? The cosmos?

It did not take long until the dance addiction has truly set in Frolicols

I used to dance as a lead in lessons but what I have noticed about my dancing as a man is that I tend to do a limited number of moves, compared to the number of moves that I have been taught. I also observe that when dancing as a follower (I say that loosely) that most men I dance with only do a limited number of moves. I think it is what moves fit your style and what you become comfortable with.

One way to help moves flow together is to do an Intermediate workshop.

Lastly I think dancing is so much more than moves, some of my favourite dancers do very few moves but it is how they execute the dance nad feel the music that makes them so good to dance with

[MarkW]

It may just be that one teacher's style suits you better. I am lucky to have H, Nico and Tom as teachers in my local (within 10 miles from home) vicinity. Most of my moves could be called "Nico moves" as his Latin influenced style really appeals to me but I definitely appreciate the different style emphasis the others bring and have moves from H from eight years ago that I think I will keep in the repertoire forever.

As Maxine says it's not just about moves (but it took me five years to begin to really put that notion to any practical use).

[frolicols]

It may just be that one teacher's style suits you better. I am lucky to have H, Nico and Tom as teachers in my local (within 10 miles from home) vicinity. Most of my moves could be called "Nico moves" as his Latin influenced style really appeals to me but I definitely appreciate the different style emphasis the others bring and have moves from H from eight years ago that I think I will keep in the repertoire forever.

As Maxine says it's not just about moves (but it took me five years to begin to really put that notion to any practical use).

I certainly agree on the idea of it not just being about the moves. As is mentioned many times, I'd rather do 3 minutes of beginner moves with some style than mechanically go through any intermediate stuff I've learned. I'm currently "flavouring" my dancing with a few of the intermediate moves really (as I get more confident with them).

I just find that some of the moves with one particular venue are impractical for freestyle. I still concede they are good to learn to gain experience, but will I ever use logwalks in freestyle? Probably not.

[Phil_dB]

Yes i've noticed this, - at first I thought the routines/moves taught that I liked was just down to pot-luck, but i've since realised that certain teachers will nearly always teach routines that I love and have continued to use weeks/months later, - and other teachers consistently teach routines that I'm not fussed over. It's definitely a style thing.

Often I will learn something at home from an instructional DVD or youtube before setting off for class... so then, if I find that intermediate routine taught isn't to my liking, at least i've ended the night practicing/learning something new.

[martingold]

Ah now in my short (10yrs) experience with ceroc this seems to be all part of the learning curve

I find that you get a variety of people who all want different things but this pattern seems to emerge

Firstly (and obviously) you get the beginner

This is someone who will learn the routine and beginners moves over a period of time getting the basic building blocks into their muscle memory

Then you get the Improver/intermediate

This is someone who thinks the whole thing of learning to dance is about learning moves. more moves and then even more moves

Finally you get the dancer

This is someone who has found musicality and reduces the amount of moves to those that they like (and find their partners like) but do them as well as possible maybe picking one or two moves up occasionally but really just playing with the music and the moves they know making bits up as they go along

personally i wouldn't worry about learning loads of moves you will only forget them anyway
just find a few that you really like and a good musicality workshop something like adam nathansons when he does one
Do the lessons sure (you never know what you will be taught or who you will meet) but dont worry whether you like the moves or not

[bigdjiver]

... will I ever use logwalks in freestyle? Probably not.

One of the Ceroc new moves this year was a yoyo into a log walk, was that the one you were taught?

log walks allow many ladies to strut their stuff and look really good. One I like starts with a First move, blocking the ladies exit, and then leading into a log walk by both. The last time I was taught this the teacher said it was like stepping over a log. The previous times I was told it was like pivoting around whilst walking on a log. It took me years to get to be able to lead this, and I still fluff it too often, but, when it works, it is a really nice move.

There is also an intermediate move (more like mini-routine) that I like which involves a "Monkee" walk for a few paces in one direction and pivot and a linear log walk back to start point which I like. There is rarely the combination of space and partner to let me lead it.

[DundeeDancer]

Recently (as the Ceroc bug burrows ever deeper into my brain) I have started going to multiple venues during the week to get my "fix". I've noticed that the standard and quality of intermediate moves taught differs from venue to venue.

I'm trying to add new intermediate moves into my repertoire, but I'm finding that I only really feel that the moves from one particular venue are suitable to add into freestyle.

What do you think the reason for this would be? My dancing level? The teacher? The cosmos?

Sounds like the moves are technically more difficult to lead & follow at the other venues.

Maybe overtime you'll find you can use those moves more often but in the meantime just concentrate on having fun with the moves you find you can lead on most followers.

I had the same problem with some moves I loved in class where they worked great but never worked in freestyle unless I was dancing with a really good follower and I lead them perfectly. In the end I dropped them from my repertoire.

If you want to get more out the classes at the other venues then ask the teacher to highlight the Classic intermediate moves when performing them during the class and then hopefully you'll pick those up easier.

Otherwise ask the teacher for a dance and try the class out on them, that's always good for a laugh as usually they can't follow it themselves

[Miss Flicts]

It might be a style thing - you might be preferring a certain teacher's patterns because they suit the way you naturally move, so they feel more comfortable to do.

Or it may be that the teaching at that venue is actually better (ie they teach the lead correctly and thoroughly, so you are doing the move the best way). If you learn moves accurately, they feel more comfortable to dance in freestyle.

Or the other venues might be teaching oddball patterns that don't really work in freestyle because the teachers are bored with the usual intermediate stuff and try to come up with their own original/innovative patterns, not realising that they are not really freestyle-friendly.

Whatever the reason, just carry on picking out what you like and don't bother about the rest. Your repertoire will change and evolve anyway, as you progress and find your own style.

[marcusj]

I certainly agree on the idea of it not just being about the moves. As is mentioned many times, I'd rather do 3 minutes of beginner moves with some style than mechanically go through any intermediate stuff I've learned. I'm currently "flavouring" my dancing with a few of the intermediate moves really (as I get more confident with them).

I just find that some of the moves with one particular venue are impractical for freestyle. I still concede they are good to learn to gain experience, but will I ever use logwalks in freestyle? Probably not.

Hello mate, DTS introduced us briefly a month or so ago, next time I come to Stevenage we must have a proper hello and a chat.

Did you go to St Neots on Tuesday ?!

My advice for what it’s worth is I would focus on not just learning the moves but working out how to lead the moves, do the former without the latter and things just won’t work. Don’t shoot me girlies, but a lot of women in the classes don’t help the guys to work out how to lead properly by learning the moves themselves and thereby moving before they are led or worse back leading.

Maybe it’s my martial arts background but I always look for where the momentum is applied and when. It’s hard to explain but here goes, as a guy you can tell when the woman has got just the right amount of tension in her arms, too little and it’s hard to lead anything, too much and it’s 2 pinfalls or a submission, it’s the same thing with your lead, it has to apply the right amount of force to start a movement off with gentle guiding through until the time of the next change of direction or pace, without using the momentum that exists or the gentle guiding in between there is a series of yanks interspersed with periods of nothing where the woman hasn’t got a clue what the man wants.

[u-dancing]

Maybe it’s my martial arts background but I always look for where the momentum is applied and when. It’s hard to explain but here goes, as a guy you can tell when the woman has got just the right amount of tension in her arms, too little and it’s hard to lead anything, too much and it’s 2 pinfalls or a submission, it’s the same thing with your lead, it has to apply the right amount of force to start a movement off with gentle guiding through until the time of the next change of direction or pace, without using the momentum that exists or the gentle guiding in between there is a series of yanks interspersed with periods of nothing where the woman hasn’t got a clue what the man wants.

In my limited experience (2 years) this is a thought that has come more to the front, when is it mans fault and when is it a womans?

I have learnt a number of moves in class workshops that are nice and not too difficult but do require a reasonable follow. The problem is that from my start in ceroc i kept hearing the phrase 'If goes wrong it is the mans fault!'

This is simply not true as i see it as 50/50 and have worked hard to improve my lead. What i look for in a follow is good connection with good tension but not an arm wrestle. Without this a lot of moves are impossible to lead or lead well, but seems a lot of ladies overlook this aspect of dancing (sure guys do too).

What this means is that if you don't get exposure to lots of ladies with good follow your repatoire is limited to beginners and few classic intermdiate moves. And those nice moves that are leadable with even a little connection get forgotten.


I know moves are not everything and i am working on improving musicality but i can get bored doing same limited amount of moves all night no matter how good i get at them, possible the ladies do to? When i do dance with good follow and introduce and nice move i get comments on how nice the move is or the variation of moves.

I believe that amount of intermediate moves in freestyle is always going to be limited by the qaulity of the lead follow connection which seems not to be a priority in classes.

[Jhutch]

In my limited experience (2 years) this is a thought that has come more to the front, when is it mans fault and when is it a womans?

Of course a move can go wrong due to poor following. However, i think the thinking is that the leader is responsible for choosing the moves so they should have already assessed the ability of the follower and decided that move shouldnt be done. So in this case it is the man's fault that it is the woman's fault Men can be solely to blame as well of course At the end of the day, you cant tell 100% if a woman will be able to follow a move or not - and since you dont want to end up doing continuous arm jives just in case they cant follow something else then there will always be times when a follower cant follow something. I suppose that how much the initial error matters can be down to the man because if you just grab a hand and carry on then it wont matter.

[frolicols]

Sounds like the moves are technically more difficult to lead & follow at the other venues.

Maybe overtime you'll find you can use those moves more often but in the meantime just concentrate on having fun with the moves you find you can lead on most followers.

I had the same problem with some moves I loved in class where they worked great but never worked in freestyle unless I was dancing with a really good follower and I lead them perfectly. In the end I dropped them from my repertoire.

<snip>

Agreed - I think it could be that some of the moves are probably a little too technical for me just yet

It might be a style thing - you might be preferring a certain teacher's patterns because they suit the way you naturally move, so they feel more comfortable to do.

Or it may be that the teaching at that venue is actually better (ie they teach the lead correctly and thoroughly, so you are doing the move the best way). If you learn moves accurately, they feel more comfortable to dance in freestyle.

Or the other venues might be teaching oddball patterns that don't really work in freestyle because the teachers are bored with the usual intermediate stuff and try to come up with their own original/innovative patterns, not realising that they are not really freestyle-friendly.

Whatever the reason, just carry on picking out what you like and don't bother about the rest. Your repertoire will change and evolve anyway, as you progress and find your own style.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head on just about every point there!

Did you go to St Neots on Tuesday ?!

My advice for what it’s worth is I would focus on not just learning the moves but working out how to lead the moves, do the former without the latter and things just won’t work. Don’t shoot me girlies, but a lot of women in the classes don’t help the guys to work out how to lead properly by learning the moves themselves and thereby moving before they are led or worse back leading.

Also agree. Sometimes I'll think I have an intermediate move nailed in the rotation, but as soon as I try and lead it in freestyle (i.e. when the follower is not expecting it) it certainly tests my ability to lead it!!!

I know moves are not everything and i am working on improving musicality but i can get bored doing same limited amount of moves all night no matter how good i get at them, possible the ladies do to? When i do dance with good follow and introduce and nice move i get comments on how nice the move is or the variation of moves.

I'm definitely in the same boat on this one. As I'm of the slightly younger generation (emphasis on the slightly!) I have the attention span that is best measured in nano-seconds.

I want to learn MORE moves. And before anyone throws the age old line "you don't need a massive repertoire, just a small one that you can do properly", that is not the reason! I want to keep learning moves so I can drop moves I don't like and continuously improve a limited repertoire to a finite number of moves that (a) I enjoy and therefore (b) hold my interest and attention span!

[Phil_dB]

I think there's too many leads out there who can't actually "dance". They just plod around "leading moves", - which is where all these 'anti-moves' comments come from.

Time spent dancing is no indication of ability IME, so unless someone has seen frolicols dance they can't actually say "you dont need any more moves!". It might be that frolocols is a superb, fluid, stylish dancer, with an excellent clear lead, always focusing on his partner etc etc, - but his repetoire is limited! In which case - he could probably do with learning few more moves!!

As for "don't dance with moves, just movements" - well for a intermediate/improver/whatever, I think you're only going to get to that point by learning and practicing with different moves, - and as you say, for the sake of your own sanity/boredom, - yes, more moves are needed! I think most people on this forum appreciate that moves are only a small piece of the puzzle, so it doesnt need to get repeated quite so often as it does.

I've got a friend who lives near Stevenage Frolicols, I may plan a trip up there to coincide when the stevenage-ceroc is on and pop in and say hello at some point.... - I always enjoy visiting new venues and it would be good to meet you and I believe DTS who dances there

[timbp]

Recently (as the Ceroc bug burrows ever deeper into my brain) I have started going to multiple venues during the week to get my "fix". I've noticed that the standard and quality of intermediate moves taught differs from venue to venue.

I'm trying to add new intermediate moves into my repertoire, but I'm finding that I only really feel that the moves from one particular venue are suitable to add into freestyle.

What do you think the reason for this would be? My dancing level? The teacher? The cosmos?

One teacher is teaching you to lead some moves.
Solution: take what that teacher is telling you for individual moves and apply it to everything you learn from the other teachers

In general, if you try to lead a move in freestyle and it goes wrong, you DID NOT LEAD IT PROPERLY.
Assumptions for the previous statement are that the follower had frame and tension, and generally knew how to follow.
HOWEVER, before you lead a move you should have checked if your follower has frame and tension and generally knows how to follow.

So if you try to lead a move and it goes wrong, you DID NOT LEAD IT PROPERLY.

[Gadget]

In general, if you try to lead a move in freestyle and it goes wrong, you DID NOT LEAD IT PROPERLY.
Assumptions for the previous statement are that the follower had frame and tension, and generally knew how to follow.

Do not assume that the lead could not be adapted to take into account the level of frame and tension the follower has (or doesn't have as the case may be) - part of your skill as a lead is adapting to every follower so that they can follow your lead (*).

If you try and lead a move in freestyle and it goes wrong, you DID NOT LEAD IT PROPERLY.
No assumptions or get-out clauses.
Either the "IT" was wrong or the "LEAD" was wrong.
Both are up to you as a lead.

Now if you start with the assumption that it was your fault, you can actually try and work out where it went wrong and what you can do to fix it next time. {If you can identify the count 'when' it started to go belly-up, look at what was happening in the count before that: this is where the preparation took place. Odds are you can do something a bit different here to fix it.}


(*...and part of a skilled lead is making it look & feel like they got it right when they actually got it wrong )

[timbp]

Do not assume that the lead could not be adapted to take into account the level of frame and tension the follower has (or doesn't have as the case may be) - part of your skill as a lead is adapting to every follower so that they can follow your lead

I do not disagree; I included Gadget's criteria in "properly".

I think we agree:

If you try and lead a move in freestyle and it goes wrong, you DID NOT LEAD IT PROPERLY.
No assumptions or get-out clauses.
Either the "IT" was wrong or the "LEAD" was wrong.
Both are up to you as a lead.

I just want to give credit and help for people trying to learn. (when I started danicng I could not find the beat, and yet women still danced with me.)

[Agente Secreto]

Do not assume that the lead could not be adapted to take into account the level of frame and tension the follower has (or doesn't have as the case may be) - part of your skill as a lead is adapting to every follower so that they can follow your lead (*).

If you try and lead a move in freestyle and it goes wrong, you DID NOT LEAD IT PROPERLY.
No assumptions or get-out clauses.
Either the "IT" was wrong or the "LEAD" was wrong.
Both are up to you as a lead.

Now if you start with the assumption that it was your fault, you can actually try and work out where it went wrong and what you can do to fix it next time. {If you can identify the count 'when' it started to go belly-up, look at what was happening in the count before that: this is where the preparation took place. Odds are you can do something a bit different here to fix it.}

Sorry Gadget, I used to think everything was the lead's fault too but I've moved on. There are some people that just do something unexpected, and you cannot plan for the unexpected you can only go with the moment and innovate. Sure once you get to know someone you could miss out moves that they do the unexpected with, but wouldn't you know the problem is these surprise packages are rarely consistent enough to predict. All this analysis of counts and figuring out where it might have gone wrong - I don't know about anyone else by I have enough to think about when I'm dancing without such analytical clutter.

(*...and part of a skilled lead is making it look & feel like they got it right when they actually got it wrong )

Wholeheartedly agree with this point. In fact I remember my first JA Southport when I was standing at the side watching what I though was a superb lead dancing with a friend of a friend. When she came off the floor I said that the dance looked great from the side. My friend said no it wasn't - he was a selfish git, everything was done to make hime look good. We asked the follow - she said it was one of the least pleasurable dances she'd had.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[timbp]

There are some people that just do something unexpected, and you cannot plan for the unexpected you can only go with the moment and innovate.

Are you writing about followers reacting to leaders?
Are you writing about leaders reacting to followers?

Of course you can only go with the moment and innovate. That is the whole point of what you and your partner are doing.
Whatever you start to lead (while listening to the music), she must react to (while listening to the music). Whatever her reaction (while listening to the music), you must react to that (while listening to the music).

MJ is an improvisational dance. What you do depends on the relations between you and your partner and the music.

If your partner does something "unexpected" then there was a breakdown in communication. Maybe she interpreted the music differently to how you did. Or maybe she interpreted your lead differently to how you intended it. Maybe both.

Nevertheless, although the dance is a partnership, you are the leader; any mistake rests on you.

As leader, you must follow both the music and your partner, and weave them together without flaw.

[Agente Secreto]

Are you writing about followers reacting to leaders?
Are you writing about leaders reacting to followers?

Probably both - and in neither case do I think of mistakes.

Of course you can only go with the moment and innovate. That is the whole point of what you and your partner are doing.
Whatever you start to lead (while listening to the music), she must react to (while listening to the music). Whatever her reaction (while listening to the music), you must react to that (while listening to the music).

MJ is an improvisational dance. What you do depends on the relations between you and your partner and the music.

If your partner does something "unexpected" then there was a breakdown in communication. Maybe she interpreted the music differently to how you did. Or maybe she interpreted your lead differently to how you intended it. Maybe both.

Nevertheless, although the dance is a partnership, you are the leader; any mistake rests on you.

As leader, you must follow both the music and your partner, and weave them together without flaw.

All this talk of mistakes and it always being the lead's 'fault'. I don't think that we're actually disagreeing but let me try to give an example from dancing at Stokies last night.

Dancing with a new partner (who was lots of fun) I led a perfectly executed sway, but when the lady came into my side she did so with her right foot planted about 18 inches behind her left although her body was perfectly in line with mine. Therefore, the sway step-back action was impossible and all she did was rotate her upper body. Same with a basket, right foot planted very solidly to the rear on the wrap into the side. Again the step-back on the right foot was impossible - she was already there - so once more she only rotated her upper body! Clearly something that she'd picked up when she learned the moves but nothing down to my leading. I simply responded to the slight variation, I can't remember thinking at the time about mistakes, and I most certainly didn't have any idea of me making one. In this example her footwork 'quirk' was unexpected (well at least the first time).

I'm very happy with the concepts of relationship in the dance, and that the lead and follow both input to this, but the very fact that MJ is improvisational means that some of the movements will be unexpected from both lead and follow (so called mistakes or not - it doesn't matter). I know that the connection and relationship is what allows partners to respond to this improvisation and when I dance I hope that this is what I practice (well with everyone except my wife - she says I'm too controlling:blush .

I'm pretty confident in my abilities to flow with this in the dance but only my partners could say whether I'm any good at it since I'm most certainly not the perfect leader or any sort of dance god. I am just a guy having fun and hoping to give the same to my partner and I'd never do that if I lost myself in useless self-criticism whenever a move didn't go quite how I expected.

Being an engineer I'm (excessively) analytical and I know how the movements need to be led very well, but I'm happy that sometimes despite what I do it won't come off as I intended it. That is no problem as long as the dance partnership has fun and nothing I do leads to injury. I no longer consciously think right and wrong when I'm dancing freestyle. I used to, so guess what lots of moves seemed to go wrong - now I just go with it and live with interesting (and blame free) variations which are most definitely not flaws........

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance