How do you lead kicks?

[CheesyRobMan]

Encountered the First Move Kicks and the FM Charleston Kicks yesterday, as potential moves to teach in a class. I prefer the former for a few reasons, but the main problem I have with both is that they don't seem to be leadable - can anyone who's better at leading shed any light on how you might get your follow to do this in freestyle, instead of standing there staring at you kicking your legs and going ?

[Dreadful Scathe]

I remember Nina Daines suggesting that if your lead is clear up to the point that you start the kicks, although your partner will miss the first kick they should pick up the rest (assuming the kicks are completely new of course). Steps are obviously easier because you can lead until the follower has to either step or fall over, but you can't lead a kick unless the follower implicitly knows there should be one

[straycat]

Lindy 101 - body leads

In all seriousness, this is one that it's a lot easier to demonstrate than to describe, but I'll give it a go in my usual over-wordy fashion

Stand on one leg, an do a kick where the movement begins from your knee, and doesn't affect any other part of your body.

No way can anyone follow that without staring at your feet all the way through the dance, and even then it's going to be hard.

Try the same again, but driving the kick from your hip. You'll find a whole lot more body movement happening. And now, if you can drive it with your core (hard to describe), the movement is reflected through your whole body. If you have a good connection with your partner (easy with the FM), she should feel what you're doing - she may still, as DS says, miss the first kick if she's not familiar with the move, but this kind of body lead makes it a lot easier to follow.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Not a big fan of kicks but one thing you should be thinking about (as well as space/is she going to kick you in the shins etc) is where the ladies body weight is.

If you want her to kick with her left leg, she wont be able to do this unless most of her weight is on her right, so you might need to lead her to step first

[Lory]

If you have a good connection with your partner (easy with the FM), she should feel what you're doing - she may still, as DS says, miss the first kick if she's not familiar with the move, but this kind of body lead makes it a lot easier to follow.

I was going to say, try to establish as much body to body contact as possible. Standing side by side to do charlston kicks for example, I'd like to feel contact all the way down from the shoulder to knee if possible, with the leads arm firmly around my waist.

Any body movement its fairly easy to follow in this hold.

Also, a big tip/request, if your follow doesn't pick up on it straight away, give her a second chance, there's been so many occasions in the past, when I've just cottoned on to whats required of me and the guy moved on
and its very frustrating!

Lastly, I was lucky enough to have a private with Robert Royston a couple of weeks ago and we also chatted about visual leads.. Ala 'copy cat' styley (he was actually talking about 'me' as a follow, inviting the lead to copy 'my' syncopations but I think the principle probably works universally ) ...

Start to do something, i.e. kicks, then establish good eye contact, then draw the attention to the kicks, thus inviting your partner to join in
(though, I have to say, I've tried this quite a bit, with varying results, including a few 'What the *' looks but I think its just that men in general, are crap at that sort of thing :rofl

[martingold]

Encountered the First Move Kicks and the FM Charleston Kicks yesterday, as potential moves to teach in a class. I prefer the former for a few reasons, but the main problem I have with both is that they don't seem to be leadable - can anyone who's better at leading shed any light on how you might get your follow to do this in freestyle, instead of standing there staring at you kicking your legs and going ?

i normally ask my partner if she knows the move previous to doing it if they dont know it i wont lead it unless they ask what i mean then i show them if it all goes pear shape what does it matter its only a dance after all

i will often talk to my partner when dancing ie asking if they are ok with drops etc it just makes the whole experience much nicer than ignoring them all the way through

[Lory]

i normally ask my partner if she knows the move previous to doing it if they dont know it i wont lead it

Please don't do this to me.. I hate being asked

1. I don't know the names of ANYTHING

And

2. I love a challenge!

[Twirly]

Please don't do this to me.. I hate being asked

1. I don't know the names of ANYTHING

Not so keen on the challenges as Lory, but I do try

[Dreadful Scathe]

Please don't do this to me.. I hate being asked

1. I don't know the names of ANYTHING

And

2. I love a challenge!

Likewise I dont know the names of anything either and I dislike "what did you just do"...I generally have no clue, don't ask me that Also, being asked to do something again because my partner "didnt quite get it", forget that too, I've moved on

[gamebird]

Also, a big tip/request, if your follow doesn't pick up on it straight away, give her a second chance, there's been so many occasions in the past, when I've just cottoned on to whats required of me and the guy moved on
and its very frustrating!

Please don't do this to me.. I hate being asked

1. I don't know the names of ANYTHING

too

Likewise I dont know the names of anything either and I dislike "what did you just do"...I generally have no clue, don't ask me that Also, being asked to do something again because my partner "didnt quite get it", forget that too, I've moved on

I understand your predicament but I do sometimes ask 'cos I like the move and would like to know what it is so I can hopefully follow it next time

Not fond of kicks though

[geoff332]

I understand your predicament but I do sometimes ask 'cos I like the move and would like to know what it is so I can hopefully follow it next time

The correct answer to that question is usually 'dunno' or 'xxx variant'. I had a teacher who insisted that everything was a beginner's variant. The more I dance, the more I realise he was right: there are only a small number of basic patterns, with a lot of room for variation.

Not fond of kicks though

As far as I'm aware, there are about three people in the universe who make kicks look good in a dance (that is led, mirrored kicks; as opposed to a foot flick added for style or something like a kick-ball-change). If you're not one of these three people and your partner isn't another one of them, the best advice on leading kicks is don't.

If you must, then it's all about the weight change before and through the kick. To transmit this properly to your partner, you both need a rock-solid frame and very good connection. If your frame's sloppy, then the subtleties of the weight change are lost; if you don't have good connection, then your partner won't know about it anyway. But even with a very good lead, they're very hard to lead and the lead is easily misinterpreted.

[Lory]

As far as I'm aware, there are about three people in the universe who make kicks look good in a dance~snip~ If you're not one of these three people and your partner isn't another one of them, the best advice on leading kicks is don't.

Oh don't say that.. done badly, they're exceptionally entertaining to watch

There's a couple who go to a venue I used to frequent, who only ever danced with each other and they would do long choreographed routines (I knew they were choreographed, as they used to sit down, when they'd finished, even if the track hadn't )

anyway, one of the sections included an elaborate kicking routine, with him stood behind her, both hands on her waist.... when suddenly it occurred to
me... they're probably rehursing to be a pantomime horse!

[straycat]

As far as I'm aware, there are about three people in the universe who make kicks look good in a dance (that is led, mirrored kicks; as opposed to a foot flick added for style or something like a kick-ball-change). If you're not one of these three people and your partner isn't another one of them, the best advice on leading kicks is don't.

Well - an obvious question is - are they ever taught properly? Do teachers ever do any more than say 'kick with the left foot'? (this is a serious question, not a cynical rhetorical one, btw - I'd be very happy to get a 'yes' as an answer to it)

They can be amazing if done well.

Having said that, I don't tend to lead 'em in MJ. Why this is, I couldn't say.

[martingold]

Please don't do this to me.. I hate being asked

have i ever asked you
apart from asking if you are ok with drops
to be honest this always depends on the partner and what the music says to do
personally i hate signals i mean the one for the first move jump makes you look like a monkey itching a flea on your shoulder

[geoff332]

Well - an obvious question is - are they ever taught properly? Do teachers ever do any more than say 'kick with the left foot'? (this is a serious question, not a cynical rhetorical one, btw - I'd be very happy to get a 'yes' as an answer to it)

I've not seen them taught well in MJ. Others may have. I've been taught them reasonably well in ballroom jive, but they would be either a variation or part of a figure that both people know, rather than actually leading a kick. For example, a kick-ball-change is a variant to a chasse and can be thrown in by either partner. I was never taught a way to lead a kick-ball-change as a specific move.

They can be amazing if done well.

That looked more like a choreographed routine (was that rock 'n roll? It looks like jive without the chasse in the middle). Good, but didn't look like a lot of leading: as with what I learned in ballroom, they appeared to be figures involving kicking, rather than actually leading the kick (see around 50 seconds for exactly what I mean). In rock 'n roll and jive, kicking is almost part of the style of the dance, rather than a led variant.

In all honesty, when we get a proper jive track, I tend to flick my heels around a lot... it's really quite embarrassing.

Having said that, I don't tend to lead 'em in MJ. Why this is, I couldn't say.

I don't either - for the simple reason that generally look really, really naff.

[straycat]

That looked more like a choreographed routine (was that rock 'n roll? It looks like jive without the chasse in the middle). Good, but didn't look like a lot of leading: as with what I learned in ballroom, they appeared to be figures involving kicking, rather than actually leading the kick (see around 50 seconds for exactly what I mean). In rock 'n roll and jive, kicking is almost part of the style of the dance, rather than a led variant.

It was choreographed, yes... but you'd probably be amazed just how many of the non-separated moves are 100% leadable. The back Charleston stuff at 50s included - yes, it's a standard figure, but the good leaders do lead the kicks and weight shifts.

It's not back Charleston, but here a fun example of a variety of kicks etc being led...

[Lory]

have i ever asked you

No you haven't

i mean the one for the first move jump makes you look like a monkey itching a flea on your shoulder

Now THIS, I have to see not that I'd know how to respond, as I don't know what a first move jump is supposed to look like unless your supposed to jump back with laughter?

[martingold]

No you haven't

lol there ya go not all things suit all people some will take a lead some need telling some wouldnt know what the hell you were talking about even if you told em so no point in waisting breath there

Now THIS, I have to see not that I'd know how to respond, as I don't know what a first move jump is supposed to look like unless your supposed to jump back with laughter?

not a chance as i said i dont do signals except maybe the man spin or the neck break

[MartinHarper]

I've been taught to lead kicks in Lindy Hop. There, the idea was to start leading a step forwards or back, but then to stop the follower before she actually puts her foot down. Danced flat, this results in a hesitation, but danced with "pulse" and "energy", you end up with a kick. Lindy followers are used to kicking from time to time, so when they feel like they're being led into a kick, they dance their own part strongly and well.

In Modern Jive, this approach doesn't work for me. Modern Jive is normally danced smooth, followers don't follow well between the downbeats, and they're not accustomed to kicks. So, for the purposes of a Modern Jive class, I'd regard them as unleadable. Depending on the teacher's preference, they might be taught as choreography, an unled variation, or a visual lead.