Teaching. Bad Dancers/Great Teachers vs. Great Dancers/Bad Teachers

[Andy McGregor]

Moved from "Building on My Dance Ability"

Lastly you can be a great dancer but it doesn't always mean that you have the ability to pass on your knowledge to someone that is a talent in its own right

Gerry is right in this. The two talents are unrelated.

There's 2 types of bad dance teacher who we've identified.

1. Champions who can't teach because they have no communication skills or teaching ability.

2. Teachers with great communication skills who can't dance.

I can still remember the whole tribe of dancers in the New Forest area who danced MJ on the 2. They must have been taught by someone. And that teaching must have been very effective because it was impossible to get them to dance on the 1.

We seem more inclined to discuss Group 1, the champions who can't teach. They're easily identified because they wear a shiny medal. But what about Group 2, people who'd get knocked out in the first round of a competition due to their poor dancing but teach every week? Should they be teaching at all? I think not. But who is going to stop them? And how is a new dance student going to be able to work out who they are as they have no frame of reference - it's a Catch 22, they need to be taught to dance before they can judge who should be teaching them to dance.

I'm not sure about this. Although there are obvious targets for people who shouldn't be teaching, this is generally down to the fact that they can't teach! Whether or not you are any good at competition dancing is (IMHO) totally irrelevant. There was a chap I saw teach as LeJive years ago in the N \West. Massively unimpressive to watch dance but on several occasions I saw him successfully teach routines I would probably have failed with.

I think we can all find single examples like this. Let's not argue from the particular to the general. There is no reason why an unimpressive dancer shouldn't be an effective teacher. If their dance basics are sound and they're a good communicator they will be an effective teacher - even if they can't sell their moves to an audience like a competition dancer.

However, I've seen a scary number of MJ teachers who don't know the basics of dance such as frame or spinning. Some don't even know the basics of musical timing.

Please note, I'm not having a go at Ceroc. Far from it! All the Ceroc teachers I've seen can dance well and teach effectively. I think it's down to the strict selection process and extensive training. Compare this to some guy who thinks he can dance who simply books a hall, buys a microphone and puts some ads in the paper - he says he's a dance teacher and looks just like any other dance teacher, especially to a total novice. How is the new student going to know the difference?

What can be done about this situation?

Suggestions please.

[DavidY]

There is no reason why an unimpressive dancer shouldn't be an effective teacher. If their dance basics are sound and they're a good communicator they will be an effective teacher - even if they can't sell their moves to an audience like a competition dancer.

I would argue that an unimpressive dancer (who doesn't win competitions) can still be a good dancer because he or she still feels fabulous to dance with; but it's only their partner who knows it at that moment.

(Sorry I realise this doesn't answer your question! :blush

[philsmove]

I don’t think it matters
It’s not a matter of life and death ( at least not for most people )
The main reason people go to dance classes is to have a fun night out
Provided the teacher provides that, they go back, if not, they ether give, up or try a different class
It is sad, some people never go back due to a rubbish teacher but I’d rather have that than any sort of regulation
Most people I have introduced to MJ try different classes, most find out LeRoc and Ceroc are different names for the same dance and most try both

[Gav]

What can be done about this situation?

Suggestions please.

Send a select group of forumites with a gun to secretly observe teachers.

[David Bailey]

There is no reason why an unimpressive dancer shouldn't be an effective teacher. If their dance basics are sound and they're a good communicator they will be an effective teacher - even if they can't sell their moves to an audience like a competition dancer.

Generally I'd agree with this - but a certain minimum level of dance ability is required, because you need to be able to demonstrate how movements should look. Plus, the value of "unimpressive" varies from location to location...

However, I've seen a scary number of MJ teachers who don't know the basics of dance such as frame or spinning. Some don't even know the basics of musical timing.

Relax, it's much worse than you think. Most teachers - of any dance style - don't know the basics of teaching. (or, technically, training).

Please note, I'm not having a go at Ceroc. Far from it! All the Ceroc teachers I've seen can dance well and teach effectively. I think it's down to the strict selection process and extensive training.

Agreed. CTA training seems to be effective, and professional, as far as it goes.

What can be done about this situation?

Suggestions please.

Professionalism.

[Andy McGregor]

Generally I'd agree with this - but a certain minimum level of dance ability is required, because you need to be able to demonstrate how movements should look. Plus, the value of "unimpressive" varies from location to location....

'Required' by who?

And that is the problem IMHO. The beginner doesn't 'require' anything but someone who says they are a dance teacher.

I like the ideas of forumites with a gun. I did hear there was a way that tramps used to secretly mark houses where they'd get a good reception. Perhaps we could develop some secret mark for dance venues. Some sort of graffiti that says 'Forumite Approved' or the reverse. Possibly a star rating like hotels. One star is still a star, but you wouldn't drink the water or expect the sheets to be clean.

[cederic]

One regular teacher I like doesn't dance competitively. He doesn't think he's anywhere near good enough to compete in the 'pro' categories, and certainly he doesn't have a flamboyant or showy style.

He does however teach very good technique. He shows you, tells you, tells you why, demonstrates how/why not and all the while is giving you the chance to practice, improve and learn.

He knows how to teach, enjoys teaching, and is definitely good enough to show the moves he teaches (he's a very very smooth lead when you watch him - probably due to other dance styles he also teaches).

So dancing competitively isn't necessary, unless you want to learn how to do better in competition (and surely that's coaching, not teaching, which is a whole other discussion?)


On the whole though I think the quality of teaching is at worse adequate and is usually very good (or better). I suspect it's harder for more experienced dancers to find teachers good enough to teach them anything particularly new, but that isn't necessarily a reflection on the teacher

There's only one venue I've been to where the teaching has been what I'd call 'bad'. In fact, one teacher there was frankly atrocious. It's also a non-profit co-operative dance club and that teacher was just a random member that knew a move everyone else wanted to learn. So we all did our best to do what he said, ended up giggling at each other then helped each other learn it. That "everyone has a go" approach means the quality of teaching at that venue ranges from the poor to the excellent, but the quality of the dancers is high, it's always a fun evening and the community element keeps me going back. Haven't dared try any teaching myself yet though...

[Lory]

I would argue that an unimpressive dancer (who doesn't win competitions) can still be a good dancer because he or she still feels fabulous to dance with; but it's only their partner who knows it at that moment.

(Sorry I realise this doesn't answer your question! :blush

I'd go one step further and say.. They know how to make their 'partner' feel wonderful

[NZ Monkey]

'Required' by who?

And that is the problem IMHO. The beginner doesn't 'require' anything but someone who says they are a dance teacher.

In order to be a great dance teacher they need to have (or at least used to have) a reasonable level of dance ability too as well as teaching skills obviously.

In other words, the worlds best teacher won't be able to help you without knowing something about the subject matter first. I may be an amazing WCS teacher*, but that doesn't mean you should come to me if you want to learn to speak Spanish.

If you're thinking about some sort of accrediting body then I'm not sure it's the way to go. It can work, and does quite well, but unless the body is well known outside the dance community it isn't going to help the novice with no dance experience of their own tell if their teacher is any good.

The CTA might be awesome, but if you're not a MJ enthusiast it's just another three letter acronym. The Australian Jujutsu Federation might be a weak social association with an annual barbeque, or a powerhouse of quality control that provides high level learning across the entire South Pacific. You wouldn't know which unless you were not only a member but also attended their events though.

* I'm not, but that's besides the point right now

[Andy McGregor]

If you're thinking about some sort of accrediting body then I'm not sure it's the way to go. It can work, and does quite well, but unless the body is well known outside the dance community it isn't going to help the novice with no dance experience of their own tell if their teacher is any good.

I'm not thinking about anything like an accrediting body. Who'd run it and how would it be funded? And how would you promote it to non-dancers so it made a difference.

Even if there were an accrediting body and everyone knew it existed, how many people would ask for proof of membership? People don't even check their dance teacher is insured, let alone qualified!

As I said, I'm not thinking about anything, just musing. It would be fantastic if the combined brains of the Forum could come up with a great idea for me to promote my classes as being better than the classes down the road where the teacher is a poor dancer with little dance knowledge. I don't think the Forum is going to come up with something brilliant. But there's no harm in asking.

[philsmove]

It would be fantastic if the combined brains of the Forum could come up with a great idea for me to promote my classes as being better than the classes down the road .

Now that's a completely different question

Some more details please

Does he teach on the same night ?

Does he play similar music?

Is his classes, structure and times the same as yours

Is the venue similar?

Is parking similar?

Is he part of Big franchise

[David Bailey]

'Required' by who?

By me

I certainly don't expect a dance teacher to be a competition winner. If only because I don't want to learn how to win competitions, I want to learn how to dance socially.

And I think there's far too much emphasis placed on the dance ability of a teacher, and far too little emphasis (i.e. none) on the teaching ability.

But I think it's reasonable to expect a dance teacher to be able to competently display the movements they're trying to teach, to accompany their descriptions and guidance. If I'm trying to teach how to lead an ocho, I need to be able to competently lead it myself.

[geoff332]

A few thoughts...

Firstly, a teacher needs to have a good knowledge of what they're teaching. This isn't (necessarily) the same as being good at doing it - but the two will be related (and winning competitions is a different skill from being a good dancer - also related, but not identical).

Secondly, a teacher may need to provide an exemplar of what they are teaching. This is certainly true in dancing, where "monkey see, monkey do" is the dominant mode of learning. This extends to the teacher dancing with people, where they have to dance well with people to help them get the feel of the move.

Thirdly, a teacher needs to articulate what you should be doing. You can't see everything you need to know about dancing (for example, you can't easily see tension or frame unless you already know what they are). So the teacher needs to explain this to people.

Fourthly, a teacher needs to understand how their 'class' learn. This refers to both how people learn within a class and the progressive learning over time. My feeling is the former is done well by Ceroc, but the latter comes down to the individual teacher (and it's this that will actually set the tone for a venue).

Fifthly, a teacher needs to be good at communicating and engaging. The dominant mode of teaching for modern jive seems to be to engage via humour (successfully or otherwise). Often self-deprecating... but there are a few other engagement strategies out there.

Finally, there is a real difference between dance teaching and coaching. One on one teaching is more of the latter, where the teacher focuses on the individual and their learning needs; class teaching is the former, where the teacher is trying to teach something to a large group at once (regardless of whether or not they already (think they) know it).

Professionalism.

Most professions are defined by a few features (I'm thinking lawyers, accountants, teachers, engineers, doctors, builders, pumbers, nurses etc):

• Significant entry level training - often a university degree or some other form of education, which is founded on some broadly agreed body of knowledge or practice
• Formal certification - typically by a national body (in many cases, there is a legislative requirement for this) - indicating their competence
• On-going training and development
• Quality control for certified practioners (and the ability to censure and deregister)
• Codified practices usually covering both the core practice and the mode of practice (eg ethical standards)

I could go on - this list was off the top of my head, although it's remarkably similar to the more comprehensive list on Wikipedia. Their definition is that a profession is a vocation based on specialised educational training; I'd change educational training to a 'codified body of knowledge' (you acquire that knowledge through training - so it's a fairly small difference).

CTA meets most of these criteria. The problem is it's not universal: it's something established by a company to serve their own commercial interests. It does provide Ceroc with a competitive advantage over other MJ providers (and, for that reason, I can't see it changing).

The other major issue is that MJ is not well codified. There is not a codified body of knowledge that represents 'proper' MJ (if you don't believe me, start a thread asking people to define MJ; I suspect you might get more answers than answerers). Ceroc certainly don't provide this in any meaningful way (although it is, to a larger extent than is often realised, implied). If MJ is not codified, then it's impossible to provide the sort of comprehensive education and on-going training that define a profession.

This all may sound horribly esoteric, but if you do not establish standards of what MJ is, you can't establish standards on whether it is being taught well or not. And if you can't establish standards on whether it's being taught well or not, you can't really say that teacher A is good and teacher B is bad.

[Andy McGregor]

Now that's a completely different question

Some more details please

Does he teach on the same night ?

Does he play similar music?

Is his classes, structure and times the same as yours

Is the venue similar?

Is parking similar?

Is he part of Big franchise

I was talking in general.

However, you've got me thinking, there is a class down the road from one of my nights where I can mostly answer 'yes' to the above questions - our venue is bigger, our car park is bigger, they play R&R that's a bit fast, their venue has a bar. In balance, we have a bigger venue and, I think, much better teaching, they have a bar and shorter lessons - I keep hearing the best thing about his lessons is that they're short!

Some time ago one of my newsletters pointed out the positive aspects of our classes - I didn't even use hanging comparatives like better and best, just said I was qualified, national medallist, taught at weekenders, insured, etc. I had a phone call from one of my own crew saying I was being unfair to this other teacher as he had none of the things I was claiming.

And, to add insult to injury, I bumped into the teacher in Tesco and the wrongly accused me of starting a rumour about him splitting up with his girlfriend - this was an accusation with the guy standing over me threateningly and saying the line "don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry". The odd thing is that I had heard the rumour and subsequently found out it was true For readers who don't know me, I'm the perfect height for a male dancer, 5' 7" - this is not a good height when someone is looming over you - the box of Cornflakes I was holding offered no defence - I couldn't even stand on the so I could look this guy in the eye

My Jewish friend Lynda says this guy is the kind Nebbish (I think that was the word) who people feel sorry for - so I came across as a bully in my newletter, even though all I did was say how good I was in my marketing materials.

This puts me in a difficult situation. I'm a bully if we say how good we are and I'm nothing if I say nothing. As one of my friends says, it's lose-lose.

... ahh, it's cleansing to vent a bit

But suggestions for a solution would be nice too

[Andy McGregor]

The other major issue is that MJ is not well codified. There is not a codified body of knowledge that represents 'proper' MJ (if you don't believe me, start a thread asking people to define MJ; I suspect you might get more answers than answerers).

- snip -

This all may sound horribly esoteric, but if you do not establish standards of what MJ is, you can't establish standards on whether it is being taught well or not. And if you can't establish standards on whether it's being taught well or not, you can't really say that teacher A is good and teacher B is bad.

Fabulous post

This is a path or reasoning I trod some time ago. Although not with such eloquence. And treading that path was a complete waste of time and energy.

Like Geoff, I identified the start point to this as establishing standards and codifying MJ. I joined the national committee of the LeRoc Federation with this intent. I had two frustrating years of trying to get something written down and agreed which describes the beginners moves. I couldn't get any agreement - in fact, I couldn't even get disagreement

[djtrev]

By me

I certainly don't expect a dance teacher to be a competition winner. If only because I don't want to learn how to win competitions, I want to learn how to dance socially.

And I think there's far too much emphasis placed on the dance ability of a teacher, and far too little emphasis (i.e. none) on the teaching ability.

But I think it's reasonable to expect a dance teacher to be able to competently display the movements they're trying to teach, to accompany their descriptions and guidance. If I'm trying to teach how to lead an ocho, I need to be able to competently lead it myself.

I dont think that I have encountered a single teacher who hasnt been able to display,describe and lead a move that they were teaching but there are certainly the odd one who'se style of teaching I didnt particularly enjoy.It seems to me that Ceroc are so thorough in the way they teach their teachers that I would be very surprised to hear an alternative viewpoint from any competent dancer.
I would class myself as a competent dancer.I best qualify that before I continue.
I have good rhythm,can pick up the tempo of a track and I can execute the moves to a reasonable standard but I am not the dancer that I would like to be.I haven't the desire,dedication,determination,time or inclination to be that dancer;in other words I am a social dancer.My biggest enemy on the dancefloor is me,or to be more precise my memory because having been shown move after move,week in week out,my brain turns to blancmange at that crucial moment when I want to remember the move that was taught last week.As for frame and tension-of course they are mentioned-but,and I feel sure I speak for 90% of the customers,it's in one ear and out the other.
Sorry.Back to the point I was about to make.
I personally dont think it is a teacher problem.I think the problem lies almost squarely on the dancer.You can teach all the moves you like but if the dancer has no rhythm or cant pick up the tempo of a track you are on loser before you start.I have long held the opinion that at the start of each beginner lesson there is some time spent on timing/tempo/beat,call it what you will.

[geoff332]

Like Geoff, I identified the start point to this as establishing standards and codifying MJ. I joined the national committee of the LeRoc Federation with this intent. I had two frustrating years of trying to get something written down and agreed which describes the beginners moves. I couldn't get any agreement - in fact, I couldn't even get disagreement

I'm not suggesting it'll ever happen - but if you want professional, that's what it looks like.

The reason it's unlikely to happen is ceroc. Without their involvement, professionalisation of MJ is unlikely to get off the ground. Ceroc have a vested interest in maintaining the competitive advantage they enjoy from exclusively offering the CTA, which I think would be a great starting point. I can't see them sacrificing that advantage and loosing control of their teaching standards for the 'greater good' - which would be very uncertain even under ideal circumstances. (I'm not saying ceroc should do this: their commercial advantage hasn't just happened - they invested heavily in getting the CTA to it's current state).

I'm also not convinced that some of the better independents and ceroc could 'play nice' enough to make it work. I'm not trying to reopen old wounds and I'm certainly not laying blame on anyone, but there are some rather tense relationships that would get in the way.

If it's any solace, the old professions (medicine, law, divinity) took many years to professionalise. By many, I mean thousands. (I'm not sure about the oldest profession... that may not actually be a profession - more a hobby for which you get paid).

[philsmove]

- I keep hearing the best thing about his lessons is that they're short!

:

The main reason people go to dance classes is to have a fun night out

So a short lesson and a bar might be a big attraction

OK, a lot dancers don't drink but a bar does help the atmosphere and can attract the "other half" to at least come along

Andy, people go to classes for lots of different reasons

The most popular class in my area, has short lessons and a bar

A complaint I hear about other classes is, the lessons are too long and there is not enough dancing

I have never heard anyone say they go to a class because the teacher has such and such qualification. They do go because a teacher is "fun"

People do go workshops based on a teachers reputation and winning competitions does help a teachers reputation

[David Bailey]

ICeroc have a vested interest in maintaining the competitive advantage they enjoy from exclusively offering the CTA, which I think would be a great starting point. I can't see them sacrificing that advantage and loosing control of their teaching standards for the 'greater good' - which would be very uncertain even under ideal circumstances. (I'm not saying ceroc should do this: their commercial advantage hasn't just happened - they invested heavily in getting the CTA to it's current state).

Well, it'd effectively be turning their own proprietory IP into "open-source", wouldn't it?

Personally, I reckon they could do well out of it - they could franchise their teaching methods out to non-Ceroc organisers as affiliates, and they could almost turn themselves into a wider licensing, auditing and certification organisation, rather than a single locked-in company. "OffDance" even

Of course, the Ceroc HQ response might be that they do this already, and that any MJ organiser can do this already, by applying to become a Ceroc franchisee. But that's not the same as publishing an open set of standards.

(I'm not sure about the oldest profession... that may not actually be a profession - more a hobby for which you get paid).

Research may be required.

[jim]

Fabulous post

This is a path or reasoning I trod some time ago. Although not with such eloquence. And treading that path was a complete waste of time and energy.

Like Geoff, I identified the start point to this as establishing standards and codifying MJ. I joined the national committee of the LeRoc Federation with this intent. I had two frustrating years of trying to get something written down and agreed which describes the beginners moves. I couldn't get any agreement - in fact, I couldn't even get disagreement

I'm interested in this idea. I think I could establish basic standards to the way i'm personally dancing at the moment. But no doubt they wouldn't be the same standards someone else would apply to their Mj.