The 'new' Ceroc moves

[mick]

Am I the only person who thinks that the recently introduced, more user-friendly, moves are actually more difficult (and not as good) as the old style moves eg arm-jive? Or maybe I'm just past it.

[Andy McGregor]

Am I the only person who thinks that the recently introduced, more user-friendly, moves are actually more difficult (and not as good) as the old style moves eg arm-jive? Or maybe I'm just past it.

I think the new moves are much easier for beginners. Furthermore, they're more consistent in their footwork for the follower. In particular, the arm-jive has step-tap footwork with the weight carried on the same foot for two beats. There's hardly any other moves in MJ where this happens - why teach the exception as an introduction?

[Whitebeard]

In particular, the arm-jive has step-tap footwork with the weight carried on the same foot for two beats. There's hardly any other moves in MJ where this happens - why teach the exception as an introduction?

In my case the arm-jive is a body styled (led) move with weight shifting from foot to foot, but with both feet remaining in contact with the floor, and definitely no foot tapping. Smooth?

[Andy McGregor]

In my case the arm-jive is a body styled (led) move with weight shifting from foot to foot, but with both feet remaining in contact with the floor, and definitely no foot tapping. Smooth?

Many people do the arm jive this way and there's nothing wrong with it - what you do with your unweighted foot is a style variation. However, you are still carrying your weight on each foot for 2 beats, even if you are keeping your unweighted foot in place. This makes the arm-jive the odd-one-out in the moves book. And THIS exception to the rules is why, I believe, the arm-jive is not really suitable as a move which introduces the principles of Modern Jive to beginners - which are identical in 99% of moves, especially for the follow.

N.B. The arm-jive footwork is basically the dad-dance footwork. You step left on the 1 the bounce left on the 2 and then step right on the 3 followed by a bounce right on the 4 - repeat this footwork for the next bar, possibly with silly arm waving. In the advanced or smooth dad-dance you could leave your unweighted foot in place and simply move your weight from side to side very 2 beats - very cool, but still the dad-dance. I will soon be releasing the DVD "Learn the Dad-Dance - Left on the Ag right on the doo" to accompany the re-release of Agadoo by Black Lace.

[Franck]

Am I the only person who thinks that the recently introduced, more user-friendly, moves are actually more difficult (and not as good) as the old style moves eg arm-jive? Or maybe I'm just past it.

I like the new moves, they are more dynamic (less static, like the Armjive) and get dancers moving more. Some moves are harder than previously, but most are easier and overall look and feel better, especially for beginners.
I think that those of us who started on the old moves might have struggled to adjust to the new moves, but then again, none of the old moves have been banned, and are now classic intermediate moves...

[Andy McGregor]

then again, none of the old moves have been banned,

Have any moves been "banned"? IMHO the YoYo with no place change should be banned as it pull the lady's are out of the socket.

[DJ Mike]

I'm not a teacher, so this is purely observation based on my own experience which only stretches back 5 years... But I much prefer the new beginners' moves as well. They do something which the previous line-up of moves didn't do consistently, namely emphasise a lead coming from the body (e.g. strong, continual weight changes) rather than just the arms, without that implicitly having to be taught. The arm jive, for example, was a move which I frequently saw beginners doing just moving their arms back and forth - especially as it was often being taught without much focus on footwork and simply having both partners twisting side to side. I also agree with what Andy has already said about the inconsistency of the weight changes which occurred every 2 beats rather than 1.

The shoulder drop was another move I didn't think worked very well - the second half of original move could be done without the leader moving their body at all! Not a very good move for teaching a strong connection between partners.

I'd guess much of the evolution of the beginners moves over the years has come from teaching styles changing and attempting to simplify the explanation of how moves work during a lesson - it's great to have moves that can be taught with little explanation but they need to be moves which innately emphasise a strong lead in order to be successfully learned.

[cederic]

IMHO the YoYo with no place change should be banned as it pull the lady's are out of the socket.

I've never seen the Yoyo taught without a place change at a Ceroc venue. I did go to an 'indie' venue that taught it in the "drag your partner back around to face you" way and even as a beginner it was clear that this wasn't good.

If nothing else, I can't get her from behind to in front and facing me inside of a beat without risking serious damage.

[philsmove]

.

- it's great to have moves that can be taught with little explanation

i recently went to an old style leroc class .The teacher spent at least 5 min, with no dancing and no music, trying to explain the move

the new Ceroc moves seem to get people free-styling much quicker

[Andy McGregor]

i recently went to an old style leroc class .The teacher spent at least 5 min, with no dancing and no music, trying to explain the move

the new Ceroc moves seem to get people free-styling much quicker

I really do think the dance has divided into at least 2 dances. There's what Philsmove has called the "old style leroc class" and the newer dance which mostly has a weight change on every beat - the LeRoc Handbook calls this "step LeRoc" in a way that, to my mind, is slightly condecending.

I think the "old style leroc" dance is closer to it's jive roots and the newer dance I teach has evolved to be closer to the Latin dances. I think the dance I teach falls between Rumba and ChaChaCha - Rumba has 3 weight changes per bar, ChaChaCha has 5 weight changes - the version of MJ that I teach has 4 weight changes. And, to get back on-topic, I've only seen a handful of the new Ceroc beginners lessons and they seem to be closer to the dance I teach than the "old style leroc".

Please note, I'm not claiming to have invented the new version of MJ. Far from it. All I've done is observe what's being done on the real world dance floor. I have taken into account proper partner dance technique when working out what to teach and sifted out the bad technique I've witnessed in the real world. The problem is that some of that bad technique has been learned from some dreadful dance teachers who really do not have a clue

The biggest problem for the future of MJ is that there's at least 2 dances being called the same name. I get them coming to my classes thinking they can dance MJ - they can, but a version of MJ with no footwork which requires partners to stand a long way apart to avoid stepping randomly on each others feet - this distance results in dreadful posture and a huge dance footprint. It's certainly not the version of MJ that I teach with partners standing much closer, proper frame and posture and strict footwork for the follows and almost as strict footwork for the leads.

[philsmove]

The biggest problem for the future of MJ is that there's at least 2 dances being called the same name. .

Not sure if this really is a problem

most good follows can adapt to both styles

some follows who do not like the new style, simply stick to dances that play old style music and have plenty of old style leads

most good leads ,realise any dance will change and evolve, they will seek out classes teaching the new style

At cloud 9 dances ( nether Ceroc or Leroc) you will see both styles danced to the same music

When the slower tracks, which are less suitable for the old style, come on, the better old style dancers, become aware they are missing something and try classes that teach the new style

The problem is that some of that bad technique has been learned from some dreadful dance teachers who really do not have a clue .

somethings never change, but when it comes to a list of things, that are wrong in this world, I dont think they are even counted

[DJ Mike]

I really do think the dance has divided into at least 2 dances.

That's a very interesting observation and one that I can certainly see sense in - I suppose it has come about, if anything, because there is such a wide range of opinions on what constitutes core MJ.

The biggest problem for the future of MJ is that there's at least 2 dances being called the same name.

I don't think this is a problem per se - if I've learnt nothing else (besides some moves) doing MJ this long it's that the spirit of the dance is to get people learning to lead and follow in nice easy-to-understand terms without worrying about footwork, position or where your body weight is supposed to be. Regardless of whether the style of MJ being taught is different that core still remains. Personally I think the new style offers far more possibility in terms of range of music that you can dance to (although possibly is less geared towards fast music given the greater number of weight changes going on), but as others have said a good lead will adapt their style of dance to suit the music anyway.

[DavidY]

IMHO the YoYo with no place change should be banned as it pull the lady's are out of the socket.

I've never seen the Yoyo taught without a place change at a Ceroc venue.

It used to be the standard Ceroc way, going back several years. It was changed as far as Ceroc were concerned in a previous move shake-up a few years back. (There are probably details on here somewhere if you search back.)

[Prian]

Have any moves been "banned"? IMHO the YoYo with no place change should be banned as it pull the lady's are out of the socket.

Not if it's done properly

[mick]

Many people do the arm jive this way and there's nothing wrong with it - what you do with your unweighted foot is a style variation. However, you are still carrying your weight on each foot for 2 beats, even if you are keeping your unweighted foot in place. This makes the arm-jive the odd-one-out in the moves book. And THIS exception to the rules is why, I believe, the arm-jive is not really suitable as a move which introduces the principles of Modern Jive to beginners - which are identical in 99% of moves, especially for the follow.

N.B. The arm-jive footwork is basically the dad-dance footwork. You step left on the 1 the bounce left on the 2 and then step right on the 3 followed by a bounce right on the 4 - repeat this footwork for the next bar, possibly with silly arm waving. In the advanced or smooth dad-dance you could leave your unweighted foot in place and simply move your weight from side to side very 2 beats - very cool, but still the dad-dance. I will soon be releasing the DVD "Learn the Dad-Dance - Left on the Ag right on the doo" to accompany the re-release of Agadoo by Black Lace.

I see now where I'm going wrong. Its because I'm a dad!
'Elvis' got it wrong too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q072fqDMwI

[Andy McGregor]

I see now where I'm going wrong. Its because I'm a dad!
'Elvis' got it wrong too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q072fqDMwI

Absolutely brilliant. Love the dog wandering through the demonstration!

This also demonstrates another thing I don't like to see in the arm-jive. These are the dancing meerkat and the Karate Kid.

Dancing meerkat - in the two handed open hold the guy raises both hands to chest height. The lady ends up looking like a meerkat or a begging kangaroo.

Karate Kid - In the arm jive the guy raises his hands at the end of the twist. This means one of his hands goes towards and far too close to the lady's chesticles as the other hand goes towards the man's moob. When the hand arrives at it's chesty destination the guy bounces the hands as if polishing - to my eye it looks like "wax on, wax off" - "wax on" is on the 1 & 2 and "wax off" changes sides for the 3 & 4.

Joking aside, in the open hold, apart from the turns, you should be leading the lady's footwork by taking the leading hand towards her centre of gravity. Apart from a few scary ladies, this is around the height of their belly button/iliac crest - the balance point in the dirty dancing lift ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXM9fbdm5Zs