tippy toes!

[Rachel]

"… Also, stylistically, it can be a detriment to look like a ballerina and tippy-toe around the dance floor on straight legs. (When we want to insult another swing dancer, one of the most scathing words we can evoke is "ballerina"! Ballet dancers switching to ballroom find that one of the most difficult habits to correct is coming down in their knees instead of standing tall and straight like a ballerina …"

I feel ashamed, humiliated, embarrassed … The above quote is taken from a webpage of dance tips (albeit swing-biased) that David, I think, once posted a link to. Now I know that swing and modern jive are very different but, after reading this, I feel that, stylistically, I'm probably considered the lowest of the low, because I do tend to dance with very straight legs. Christ, after all the ballet lessons I've had in my life, it takes a lot for me just to try and stop pointing my toes and turning out my feet at Ceroc - oops!

I have a lot of trouble bending my knees much when dancing - not least because hurts! But, anyone who leads Ceroc, do you find that it's really awkward to dance with a straight-legged tippy-toed partner? Does it vastly limit the moves you can do? Does it feel wooden? Any thoughts/ideas?
Rachel

[TheTramp]

I always enjoy dancing with you Rachel.

Don't think that I need to say anymore...

Steve

[Rachel]

Thank you, Steve!! But do you find there are certain moves you can't do, or which may not turn out as expected, because your partner doesn't bend their knees? (Obviously I realise more kicky-type swing moves won't work so well...)

[Lou]

Modern Jive isn't Ballroom! It ain't Swing, neither!

IMHO, some of the nicest looking MJ styles look almost balletic. I'm thinking of ladies like Katya & LilyB here, and they're fantastic. (I know! I know! they can both change & do other styles too! , but for the purposes of this thread.... )

If you bend your knees too much it starts to look like old style R&R. Which is fine, if it's your style. But it's equally fine to have a different style, I'd say.

HTH!

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Rachel
"… it takes a lot for me just to try and stop pointing my toes and turning out my feet at Ceroc - oops!

I do this too, and after 28 years of ballet training, there's no wonder!
I've been doing MJ for about 20 months now and find the more I dance the lower I get.
I was even reprimanded severely by my former ballet mistress (mum!) for spinning with bent knees and a low demi-pointe when dancing MJ.....she has now taken up Ceroc and is starting to do the same thing!
I still point my toes and am sure I always will - aren't these the things that make us all different and give us our own brand of "interesting" as a partner?

[Gadget]

I think that when you 'sweep' your leg, pose or walk, then a straight leg and pointed toes adds to the style and grace of the dance. As to having bent knees, in my (limited) experiance bent knees help to maintain balance when spinning or doing a turn with a step.
If you have been trained how to spin with your toes/feet and can move where you are being led, then I don't see how it can be detrimental to your dancing. I can 'feel' some difference in dancing with someone who has classical training, but this is more in the fact that they come out of a re/turn perfectly balanced and with little or no momentum - when you are used to everyone else's body following the spin, it's different.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Lou
Modern Jive isn't Ballroom! It ain't Swing, neither!

IMHO, some of the nicest looking MJ styles look almost balletic. I'm thinking of ladies like Katya & LilyB here, and they're fantastic. (I know! I know! they can both change & do other styles too! , but for the purposes of this thread.... )

If you bend your knees too much it starts to look like old style R&R. Which is fine, if it's your style. But it's equally fine to have a different style, I'd say.

HTH!

Yes, you're right, of course about it not being swing/ballroom - I just wondered if us straight-legged breeds were as looked-down-on in modern jive. Or, rather, whether it just made things more awkward to lead.

BTW - v impressed with your doing the leading - I admire ladies who do that. The most I've ever tried is in the beginners' class - and that's hard enough!
Rachel

[michael]

Ho Rachel. Speaking from a beginner point of view i find the females that dance as such are very difficult to dance to. Why?

I. Cause beginners dont want to spoil the other persons dance (and their time) if they are rubbish

2. Timing.... For me that becomes frightening and dancers who dance with real grace (ok balerina) are spot on with timing.

3. Slow tunes are harder to dance reasonably to (for me anyway) you have to either listen to the beat (whatever that is....) or just think about trying to count (hate that aspect)and it demonstrates to all who may be watching that you really cant dance yet........

Franck mentioned somewhere about doing a workshop on music interpretation. me's sure many of us would like to learn how to pick up the beats and dance by counting the beats etc as well as knowing when to stop between the beats/music and anticipating the stop.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Aleks
I do this too, and after 28 years of ballet training, there's no wonder!
I've been doing MJ for about 20 months now and find the more I dance the lower I get.
I was even reprimanded severely by my former ballet mistress (mum!) for spinning with bent knees and a low demi-pointe when dancing MJ.....she has now taken up Ceroc and is starting to do the same thing!
I still point my toes and am sure I always will - aren't these the things that make us all different and give us our own brand of "interesting" as a partner?

Funny, it was actually my ballet teacher who persuaded me to start going to ceroc with her...

Lily B and Nina Daines are the dancers who most inspire me. But, as you say, they can both beautifully adapt to different styles. I can't seem to manage this!

(I gather Lily was even engaged in matador-type dancing last night! Marc was raving about it all the way home ...)
R.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Gadget
I think that when you 'sweep' your leg, pose or walk, then a straight leg and pointed toes adds to the style and grace of the dance. As to having bent knees, in my (limited) experiance bent knees help to maintain balance when spinning or doing a turn with a step.
If you have been trained how to spin with your toes/feet and can move where you are being led, then I don't see how it can be detrimental to your dancing. I can 'feel' some difference in dancing with someone who has classical training, but this is more in the fact that they come out of a re/turn perfectly balanced and with little or no momentum - when you are used to everyone else's body following the spin, it's different.

Gadget - save me a dance when I manage make it back to Scotland, would you? And, if you wouldn't mind, it would be interesting to hear any hints/tips you could give me. Some people can do fantastic spins on a bent knee (as is often taught) but I can't for the life of me spin unless I'm 'locked' into a straight position.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Rachel
Some people can do fantastic spins on a bent knee (as is often taught) but I can't for the life of me spin unless I'm 'locked' into a straight position.

I would always recommend to most people to spin on bent knees, as I find that locking your leg is a false support. The most common problem with spinning isn't balance but 'weak' leg muscles. Locking your leg will also make you 'taller' and therefore raise your centre of gravity, making it harder to spin...

I appreciate that initially, spinning on bent knees will be harder, but as you practise, your muscles strengthen and you can then do many more spins...

I'll be very interested to hear David and Lily's advice in their 'Interesting Spins' workshop in Perth, as spinning is one of the things I spend a lot of time teaching at workshops, and would love to bring more variety in my spinning!

Franck.

[Graham]

I have a tendency to keep my knees locked, and to lean back on my heels too much. I've found that wearing dance sneakers has made quite a difference - I'm now much more on the balls of my feet and this also seems to make it easier to bend my knees.

I don't find my partner's style affects the moves I do much at all, in the sense that it doesn't limit it, although it might encourage me to (try to!) do more moves which seem to fit that style better.

What does make a difference to the moves is the hand to hand connection, and I haven't noticed any correlation between this and what people do with their legs.

To echo Steve, I have no problem dancing with you, (any time, any place!), and you certainly don't limit what moves I can do.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Rachel
BTW - v impressed with your doing the leading - I admire ladies who do that. The most I've ever tried is in the beginners' class - and that's hard enough!

hehe! I have an ulterior motive! The venue in which I'm starting to dance Lead is practically a Sauna & it takes far less energy as a "man"!

BTW... isn't it more likely we'd look up to straight-legged types?

[Rachel]

Originally posted by michael
Ho Rachel. Speaking from a beginner point of view i find the females that dance as such are very difficult to dance to. Why?

I. Cause beginners dont want to spoil the other persons dance (and their time) if they are rubbish

2. Timing.... For me that becomes frightening and dancers who dance with real grace (ok balerina) are spot on with timing.

3. Slow tunes are harder to dance reasonably to (for me anyway) you have to either listen to the beat (whatever that is....) or just think about trying to count (hate that aspect)and it demonstrates to all who may be watching that you really cant dance yet........

Franck mentioned somewhere about doing a workshop on music interpretation. me's sure many of us would like to learn how to pick up the beats and dance by counting the beats etc as well as knowing when to stop between the beats/music and anticipating the stop.

Hi Michael - well, I certainly hope no-one, especially beginners, finds me scary to dance with!! I love to dance with anyone (well, anyone who's not sleazy/arrogant). No decent human being will consider dancing with a beginner as a waste of time.

I totally sympathise with people not always getting the beat/timing spot on to start with - as I was saying to Lou, I've recently started trying to do the lead in the beginners' classes and it's a nightmare trying to be aware of anything other than what move you're supposed to be doing next, which hand to catch with, etc. Don't worry, the timing will come.

I fancy doing a musical interpretation workshop, as well - think you can learn so much from those. And the general beginner/intermediate workshops also are supposed to be great. Go for it - you'll love it!
R.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Lou
BTW... isn't it more likely we'd look up to straight-legged types?

Not to me - I'm only 5'3" with my heels on!

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Lou
Modern Jive isn't Ballroom! It ain't Swing, neither!

FWIW, the original quote seems to be advocating a "near-Lindy" look - but current WCS style seems much more upright.

Here's one of the best WCS clips I've seen (in terms of being able to see what's going on) - it's the 2nd place couple from the US Open in 2001 (Kyle/Sarah). It don't look nothin' like Lindy...

www.dynamicpoetry.com/kyle and sarah.wmv

Rachel, you're always a delight to dance with - don't change things unless YOU want to!

Dave

[Graham]

Originally posted by Graham
I have no problem dancing with you, (any time, any place!), and you certainly don't limit what moves I can do.

Bad form to quote yourself, I know, but just wanted to clarify that this comment was directed at Rachel.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Franck
I would always recommend to most people to spin on bent knees, as I find that locking your leg is a false support. The most common problem with spinning isn't balance but 'weak' leg muscles. Locking your leg will also make you 'taller' and therefore raise your centre of gravity, making it harder to spin...

I'm sure you're right about the bent knees and I think that locking your joints is potentially very bad for you. But, yes, you definitely need muscle-strength, and the straight legs aren't so bad - support-wise - as long as you're using the leg muscles properly to turn you out/round.

I will always try and rise up on a spin, though - never thought about it being harder by raising your centre of gravity. However, even on a bent knee, you'd still need a very straight torso, wouldn't you, to stop losing balance?

One thing I've noticed some beginner ladies doing is trying to spin by twisting first from their shoulders, which doesn't seem to do them any favours.

Oh yes, I'd love to do David and Lily's workshop ... Been thinking for a while that I'd like to learn how to vary my spins.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by David Franklin
FWIW, the original quote seems to be advocating a "near-Lindy" look - but current WCS style seems much more upright.

Here's one of the best WCS clips I've seen (in terms of being able to see what's going on) - it's the 2nd place couple from the US Open in 2001 (Kyle/Sarah). It don't look nothin' like Lindy...

www.dynamicpoetry.com/kyle and sarah.wmv

Rachel, you're always a delight to dance with - don't change things unless YOU want to!

Dave

Oh Dave, thank you!!!

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Here's one of the best WCS clips I've seen (in terms of being able to see what's going on) - it's the 2nd place couple from the US Open in 2001 (Kyle/Sarah). It don't look nothin' like Lindy...
Dave

Great clip, one wee question, they obviously know this piece of music inside out, was this a choreographed "show case" sytle comp rather than a really jammy freestlye?