leaders & followers

[dep]

A couple of female partners have suggested that I could improve my technique by practicing following. Both to feel what it's like to have to follow and to learn what the leader has to do to make it easier/enjoyable for a follower.
I have asked a few men what they think of the idea and all with an intake of breath said "I don't think the others would like that".

Should I ignore their feelings and join the followers in a few beginners' classes or select the very few men who currently do reverse role dancing?

[Andy McGregor]

As one of the guys who has been dancing with guys for longer than most I recommend that you do NOT line up as a follower.

There is a certain personality type amongst men who really, REALLY don't like dancing with other men. They don't even like to see it! I've no idea why they are like this but guess that they confuse dancing with sex. Whatever their reason, you can not change how they feel and should avoid any situation where they are put in a position of having to dance with you. This includes lining up with the women as a follower. I've done it and guys were scared - it's only a short step from fear to aggression and you shouldn't put another guy in that position.

My advice, if you want to learn to follow is to find a like minded guy and work it out between you. But never judge another guy because he won't dance with you.

[David Bailey]

A couple of female partners have suggested that I could improve my technique by practicing following. Both to feel what it's like to have to follow and to learn what the leader has to do to make it easier/enjoyable for a follower.

Absolutely true, you find that in Tango a lot. AT is full of histories of men practicing dancing with men, and no-one's ever accused AT dancers of being wussy girlie girls.

I very rarely dance with men - I mean, why would I, they're mostly ugly and smelly - but learning to follow is definitely a good skill when trying to im"prove your own lead. Typically you see a lot of problems from the other side, and realise "Ooops, I do that..."

All that said:

have asked a few men what they think of the idea and all with an intake of breath said "I don't think the others would like that".

Should I ignore their feelings and join the followers in a few beginners' classes or select the very few men who currently do reverse role dancing?

No.. As Andy says, you'll have problems in a regular MJ class with that, you'll no doubt encounter some attitude from some men. I'd avoid trying it.

Another possibility - you could find a woman who wants to learn how to lead (for a similar reason), and practice with her as fixed partners?

[Jhutch]

Another possibility - you could find a woman who wants to learn how to lead (for a similar reason), and practice with her as fixed partners?

Why not just find a woman who can already lead (assuming you know one who can?) and let her lead you? Might even learn some new moves

[martingold]

Why not just find a woman who can already lead (assuming you know one who can?) and let her lead you? Might even learn some new moves

Funny you say this as it is exactly what i am in the process of doing
being a taxi dancer i feel it is essential that i learn to follow as well as lead
also i have seen some couples who swap about during one dance which looks really great albeit unusual
and i agree with david james again blokes are smelly and ugly so why would i want to dance with one whereas virtually all ladies are lovely in their own way

[Jhutch]

Funny you say this as it is exactly what i am in the process of doing
being a taxi dancer i feel it is essential that i learn to follow as well as lead
also i have seen some couples who swap about during one dance which looks really great albeit unusual

Yes, in the taxi dancer thread a few days ago someone said that taxi dancers should be fairly new so that they still remembered what it was like to learn. I thought then that a male taxi dancer may be more useful if he was learning to follow - surely he would be more used to learning and better able to understand why a beginner woman was going wrong? I know that the first few times i tried following i found myself having problems with the same things as beginner follows do.

[dep]

Thanks for the comments. A few things to think about.

There are a group of female leaders I could use and a few men that already practice reverse roles. Maybe join/use them is the more sensitive thing to do.
But the disadvantage of that is missing the naff leads that many men have and that I probably need to feel to help get rid of any habits I have developed.

[David Bailey]

But the disadvantage of that is missing the naff leads that many men have and that I probably need to feel to help get rid of any habits I have developed.

Yes, which is why I suggested finding a woman who wants to learn to lead, as opposed to a woman who can lead already.

Realistically, you're not learning to follow because you want to be a follower in social dancing - it's purely a learning exercise to help your leading. So going through as much "pain" as possible will be the best approach, because it'll provide you with the most information.

[Astro]

Yes, which is why I suggested finding a woman who wants to learn to lead, as opposed to a woman who can lead already.

Realistically, you're not learning to follow because you want to be a follower in social dancing - it's purely a learning exercise to help your leading. So going through as much "pain" as possible will be the best approach, because it'll provide you with the most information.

Plus all the male teachers have to learn to follow to pass their exams.

(and the female teachers have to learn to lead).

[David Bailey]

Plus all the male teachers have to learn to follow to pass their exams.

(and the female teachers have to learn to lead).

Do they?

If you're referring to CTA, I thought they just had to learn a set of specific movements for specific moves - not exactly the same thing.

[jeanie]

Another possibility - you could find a woman who wants to learn how to lead (for a similar reason), and practice with her as fixed partners?

I'm currently learning to lead and I think yesterday at the workshop one lady didn't particulary enjoy dancing with a lead lady... Don't thikn she appreciated that I had only been doing it for a few weeks and I am struggling with tension.

My point is - eventually!- I was told ladies can sometimes make better leads as they know how it feels like to have a 'good' lead and a 'bad' lead so they know how to avoid 'bad habits'.

If you want to follow then I say go for it, it has certainly made me appreciate the lead alot more, and hopefully has improved my following..

[Andy McGregor]

Plus all the male teachers have to learn to follow to pass their exams.

(and the female teachers have to learn to lead).

What exams?

[Astro]

Do they?

If you're referring to CTA, I thought they just had to learn a set of specific movements for specific moves - not exactly the same thing.

What exams?

yes, CTA.

I bow to your greater knowledges.

Not as rigorous as I thought, then, to be a teacher.

[David Bailey]

yes, CTA.

I bow to your greater knowledges.

Oh good, I like bows

Not as rigorous as I thought, then, to be a teacher.

From what I understand, the CTA is very intense, and is very difficult. And even the audition process is a nightmare to get through - you've got to get sponsored and pass an interview.

But it doesn't (AIUI) focus on dance technique, it teaches you how to teach a Ceroc class. So there's a lot of memorizing of scripts, of learning and practicing the exact sequences and placements, and so on.

So you wouldn't learn to lead, or to follow.

But then, short of Franck's classes, you won't learn that anywhere in MJ anyway.

[Andy McGregor]

But then, short of Franck's classes, you won't learn that anywhere in MJ anyway.

Ahem!

On the subject of exams, there is only one teaching exam in MJ. That's the LeRoc Federation/UKA exam. In that exam you do get asked what the man and the woman does and you need to demonstrate a knowledge of both lead and follow. You don't get asked to actually swap roles though.

On the subject of who to learn with. My recommendation is to learn to follow with a person who usually leads - and vice versa. This is like learning French from a person who has it as their first language. The problem with a man and a woman swapping roles is that they often fail to swap footwork. It works when they swap roles but fails to teach you to do it properly. Guys following need to start to think RLRL where they used to think nothing and just do what comes naturally - which is often LRLR. Failing to change footwork means that you will be on the wrong foot for the turns and returns.

[Andy McGregor]

And even the audition process is a nightmare to get through

And there was me thinking you just had to look good in a vest

[Martin]

A couple of female partners have suggested that I could improve my technique by practicing following. Both to feel what it's like to have to follow and to learn what the leader has to do to make it easier/enjoyable for a follower.
I have asked a few men what they think of the idea and all with an intake of breath said "I don't think the others would like that".

Should I ignore their feelings and join the followers in a few beginners' classes or select the very few men who currently do reverse role dancing?

It is great that you are taking on board comments on how to improve

Having tried most combinations of ideas, I would suggest you find an experienced male lead (that the female partners you mention enjoy dancing with), who is happy to help.

Good luck and good on you for wanting to improve

[Aurion]

As one of the guys who has been dancing with guys for longer than most I recommend that you do NOT line up as a follower.

There is a certain personality type amongst men who really, REALLY don't like dancing with other men.

We don't want to frighten away all the potential new leads!

My advice, if you want to learn to follow is to find a like minded guy and work it out between you.

I prefer to find another willing male lead and do the classes outwith the normal rotation. HOWEVER, I'll only do this if there are evenish numbers or an excess of males. I'm sure the last thing the 10+ extra lovely ladies want to see, is a couple of available males keeping separate!

Next time time the class is like this give me a shout, I'm always happy to assist

Thanks for the comments. A few things to think about.

There are a group of female leaders I could use and a few men that already practice reverse roles. Maybe join/use them is the more sensitive thing to do.
But the disadvantage of that is missing the naff leads that many men have and that I probably need to feel to help get rid of any habits I have developed.

I've got loads of naff leads I need to practice, so this could work out quite well

[dep]

I prefer to find another willing male lead and do the classes outwith the normal rotation. HOWEVER, I'll only do this if there are .......an excess of males.....
Next time time the class is like this give me a shout, I'm always happy to assist.............I've got loads of naff leads I need to practice

Thanks, Now I can add you to the list and know who you are. Steve, Gary but not Luca who's always demo during beginners classes.

[MartinHarper]

I'd recommend asking the teacher before rotating as a follow in a beginner class. They are best placed to decide how their students will react and whether they are willing to risk turning off other potential new customers for your benefit. Additionally, they themselves may not be comfortable teaching a male follow. If they say no, accept this gracefully. They probably have good reasons, and others have suggested good alternatives on this thread. If they say yes, be gentle and understanding with the guys. Try to start with someone who's lead you before, and try to pick a night when there are relatively even numbers.