Greater emphasis on woman's role in Ceroc?

[Danny]

I've found that the classes at Ceroc are geared almost totally towards the men, women are expected to be able to follow implicitly from Day 1 as if its not a skill that can be taught and refined with the help of a professional. Instead, women learn to follow through experience in dancing with other people.

I'd argue that this isn't enough, there are some women who've been dancing for years who still have major flaws in their following.
The main problems that I've found I've listed below:

General bad following
Getting well lead moves wrong, not paying attention, ignoring signs, ignoring tone of song, making no connection etc..

Bad handhold
The only information women are given in my venue is "loose handhold" - for a good...15-20% of them, there needs to be more clarification, no thumbs or squeezing! A lady a fortnight ago twisted my hand because she was holding on so tightly and ended up doing in my arm for the rest of the night. Too loose isn't as bad but it does get annoying when the slightest movement causes her hand to lose yours.

Keeping the rhythm
I may be wrong on this one but I've found even the most experienced female dancers will rock side to side to the music, moving my hand as they do it, before the teacher counts us in - to me, the woman is taking control of a huge aspect of the dance and I really don't know why that became normalised and accepted.
I had one lady who repeatedly told me that she was struggling to find the rhythm of the song, I also kept politely telling her to leave it to me, I had the beat easily. However, she bobbed her hand up and down to an alien rhythm and no matter how much I tried to keep it on the actual beat, it made no difference because she'd perform all the moves at her own pace too despite my efforts to control when and where as well.

Overuse of styling
Sometimes a partner will do so much arm waving and foot tapping that by the time they're done, the beat is leaving us behind. Sometimes it physically pulls the man off balance too.

Anticipation
I almost had a woman spontaneously collapse to the floor a few months ago because she thought I was going to do a dip, why? Because we'd been taught one in the lesson 20 minutes ago that began in the same way to the move I was doing.

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I know that listing that and saying what I'm saying sounds super-patronising and chauvinistic and I promise I don't mean it in that way.
But my impression is that women follow the man in every regard (minus hijack/sabotage and a few misc. others) and thats just how it is?

I also want to say that I'd consider myself an "Average" dancer so I'm nowhere near perfect and accept I'm likely a hypocrite and that many apparent 'women's mistakes' are actually my own.

Other things I could mention is general etiquette and things to look out for like long nails, 'whip hair', and rings and bangles (I'd made a topic about this previously).
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I think thats enough criticism, the point that I'm making is that there is an entire universe of teaching for women that should be given in Ceroc classes that isn't and as a result, everyone suffers. I would gladly give up one of my 'Moves' lessons a month to be replaced with lessons on the more intricate aspects of dance, especially from a woman's perspective.

You might say, well, why don't the men just politely point out the problems. Yeah, right! Everyone loves being told they're wrong! In the few times I have spoken out, the change was temporary and there was no difference when I danced with them the week after. It needs a teacher's touch early on.

One way to improve the quality of Following would be to somehow ensure the women (or a section of them) don't know the move(s) being taught. Later on, bring them in again and see if the women can do the moves the men are trying to pull off without prior knowledge. This would increase vigilance in the women as they have to be extra-responsive and that would hopefully carry on in all their dancing.
(I haven't really thought this through but the point is, the less women know about what's coming, the more ardently they'll follow)

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Ok I'm done, sorry to any/everyone I've offended, sorry to sound like such a c*ck, sorry sorry sorry. I hope I've expressed myself in a way that is vaguely agreeable. I'm really a nice, shy person who gets on well everyone.

[Twirly]

*snip*
Ok I'm done, sorry to any/everyone I've offended, sorry to sound like such a c*ck, sorry sorry sorry. I hope I've expressed myself in a way that is vaguely agreeable. I'm really a nice, shy person who gets on well everyone.

How many times have I told you - enough with the apologising!

I have to agree with some of your points though (even if I have a serious dose of paranoia now :what . I benefited from having a female teacher fairly early on, which I think does make a difference, as obviously she had experience of following so knows what it feels like.

The follows should be told to just follow – I try and do this in class, but sometimes it’s difficult to do that. And style points are rarely given.

Not sure what can be done to get people not to bounce/rock if they've got into the habit...

As for handholds, if anyone is holding on too tightly and you feel that they are liable to hurt you, then say so, and keep saying it. Some things are irritating in a dance and you have to just tolerate, but being held that tightly is dangerous. I've danced with me with extremely powerful leads, and then avoided them in the future as I don't like being thrown around the dancefloor - I only need a fairly light lead so long as it's clear.

A lot of your points though are connected with the lack of technique taught in Ceroc generally and applies to both men and women... although I've made the point before, even when it is taught in class, I've noticed that the men don't often listen...

[Danny]

I have to agree with some of your points though (even if I have a serious dose of paranoia now :what .

Don't be, in your case, I'm well aware that you're out of my league and know that all mistakes dancing with you are down to my own inexperience or ham-handedness. Greenwich has an a big percentage of ... not-so-good dancers and in all sincerity you are not one of them, its a relief to have you there.

A lot of your points though are connected with the lack of technique taught in Ceroc generally and applies to both men and women... although I've made the point before, even when it is taught in class, I've noticed that the men don't often listen...

Agreed and guilty.

[under par]

Good topic Danny, I didnt think you said anything out of place at all.

I have previously posted that it is leaders who make the dance work and therefore should be a priority to MJ organisers as they need so much help at the beginning of their journey.

But the points you raise above can be an issue with followers and as such should be an issue for the MJ organisers.

I would like to add one more unhealthy following trait... that is dancing head bowed, watching the leaders feet, it unbalances the follower and makes them difficult to lead.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I've found that the classes at Ceroc are geared almost totally towards the men

Don't know what Ceroc venues you have been going to, but I've been to LOTS and that has not been my experience.

[HelenB]

I found learning to lead a great tool to improve my following

It gave me an appreciation of how other women follow. I was then able to improve my following skills (or lack thereof ) from the experience of feeling "from the other side" both good and bad examples

[Phil_dB]

Most people have been on a workshop - the points you describe ARE taught there. So its no big secret. I think most people know about this sort of thing (connection, not anticipating, thumbs - all the things you mention), its whether they actually decide to really take notice of what is being taught and apply it that makes a difference.

Even if this stuff WAS taught in a class - I think some people would ignore it anyway, - probably the same people who have no interest in getting better, or think they're already fantastic - so don't listen to the teachers.

It is suprising that many of the problems you describe are habits for some Followers who have been dancing for a long time (I danced with a lady the other night who, despite having been Ceroc'ing for 10 years, grabbed with her thumb, - didn't transfer her weight when stepping back (just stuck her leg/bum out), - didnt stop her own weight transfer when stepping back but used me to stop herself (by nearly yanking my shoulder out of its socket).

I think some girls get to a point after a few months of dancing, - enjoy what they know and just continue. I guess it must not only be difficult to remove a 10 year habit, but also hard on the ego to admit that what you've been doing all this time could well be improved upon. Maybe some people have no interest in getting any better, and are just happy dancing around - socialising etc.

If I was stuck with the same partner for much of the night then I would be more concerned about what is taught, - but given the frequency of change in partner, - it's no big deal to me

I found learning to lead a great tool to improve my following

It gave me an appreciation of how other women follow. I was then able to improve my following skills (or lack thereof ) from the experience of feeling "from the other side" both good and bad examples

I've tried a bit of Following also (MUCH harder than I anticipated!) which helped me appreciate "your job" also, - actually if I had my way I would do every beginners lesson as a Follow if I thought that the men wouldn't mind.

[robd]

dancing head bowed, watching the leaders feet,

Yes, but you're so tall that even if the follower doesn't bow their head they are still looking at your feet

[robd]

What an oddly contradictory post Danny

All I will say is that everyone's dancing has faults, the only ones you have the ability to correct are your own. Unsolicited feedback from a dance partner - however benevolently intended or 'correct' it might be - is seldom welcomed. If you don't like dancing with people for whatever reason then don't dance with them. I do find it amusing when I read stuff on here from some followers about their negative experiences with certain leaders and what these poor leaders need to do to improve because when I dance with those same followers I am amazed at the general noodly arms and overall lack of connection. I wouldn't say anything to them but I'll also not make any effort to seek them out for subsequent dances. People in glasshouses not throwing stones, that kind of thing.

[inky66]

The follows should be told to just follow – I try and do this in class, but sometimes it’s difficult to do that. And style points are rarely given.

Agreed.

I find in classes I concentrate on following (although it can be hard to block out the instructions from the teacher and stop going into auto drive).
However I often end being told I'm doing it wrong by the leader who then tries to explain what I should be doing. I know what I'm supposed to be doing for the move being taught - but I'm following the lead and will do what I'm being lead to - how else would the lead learn? Is there a polite way of explaining this?

[Phil_dB]

People in glasshouses not throwing stones, that kind of thing.

From reading Danny's post I didn't get the impression he was having a pop at Followers, - I got the impression that he wanted to discuss what should and shouldn't be taught in class?

Keeping the rhythm
I may be wrong on this one but I've found even the most experienced female dancers will rock side to side to the music, moving my hand as they do it, before the teacher counts us in - to me, the woman is taking control of a huge aspect of the dance and I really don't know why that became normalised and accepted.
I had one lady who repeatedly told me that she was struggling to find the rhythm of the song, I also kept politely telling her to leave it to me, I had the beat easily. However, she bobbed her hand up and down to an alien rhythm and no matter how much I tried to keep it on the actual beat, it made no difference because she'd perform all the moves at her own pace too despite my efforts to control when and where as well.

^^^This comment could probably be split into two; Rhythm & Backleading.

Rhythm; - can this be taught? Or is it common sense?

Backleading; - I agree, that it wouldn't do any harm to mention this from time to time. IME however, I would say that some "experienced female dancers" backlead, - but not "most".

[Phil_dB]

Agreed.

I find in classes I concentrate on following (although it can be hard to block out the instructions from the teacher and stop going into auto drive).
However I often end being told I'm doing it wrong by the leader who then tries to explain what I should be doing. I know what I'm supposed to be doing for the move being taught - but I'm following the lead and will do what I'm being lead to - how else would the lead learn? Is there a polite way of explaining this?

You sounds like the perfect follow to me, - this makes it so much easier to learn from a lead point of view

Maybe I have a selfish attitude, but I don't think its worth going to too much trouble explaining anything, - leave the teaching to the teachers, - they'll be another partner along in 30 seconds - plus you don't get much time to have a discussion about this sort of thing in a class situation anyway.

[Double Trouble]

Yes, but you're so tall that even if the follower doesn't bow their head they are still looking at your feet

Yes, I often get winked at by Under Pars belly button when dancing with him.

[Trouble]

Yes, I often get winked at by Under Pars belly button when dancing with him.

You wanna be grateful your not alittle shorter, could be something else winking at ya.

[Double Trouble]

You wanna be grateful your not alittle shorter, could be something else winking at ya.

Thank the Lord for tippy toes or I could be getting a poke in the eye!

[robd]

From reading Danny's post I didn't get the impression he was having a pop at Followers

The glasshouses thing wasn't aimed at Danny - it was aimed at the followers I was referring to.

[robd]

You wanna be grateful your not alittle shorter, could be something else winking at ya.

Thank the Lord for tippy toes or I could be getting a poke in the eye!

Now, that UP is dancing with the music you might be well advised to avoid his gaze if he approaches and you hear the intro to 'The Snake'

[Phil_dB]

The glasshouses thing wasn't aimed at Danny - it was aimed at the followers I was referring to.

Ah, that should teach me (but probably won't) to read a post correctly before commenting

[Princess Fi]

I found learning to lead a great tool to improve my following

It gave me an appreciation of how other women follow. I was then able to improve my following skills (or lack thereof ) from the experience of feeling "from the other side" both good and bad examples

I agree to an extent.

When I started learning to lead, my following got noticably better (well, I noticed it, and given how oblivious I am...), but I was already a fairly competent follower to start with. I think the points Mark was making seemed to be based more at beginner followers (I could be wrong?).

IMO if you're a beginner who hasn't got the fundamentals of connection necessary to follow, switching over to learning to lead won't really help you

Overall it is dependant on the venue you go to. I know when I started, Franck always was reinforcing the importance of connection, even in beginner classes. If your local teacher isn't teaching that... well it's rather worrying! How on earth do they expect people to progress?

[Twirly]

Overall it is dependant on the venue you go to. I know when I started, Franck always was reinforcing the importance of connection, even in beginner classes. If your local teacher isn't teaching that... well it's rather worrying! How on earth do they expect people to progress?

Well that's where you are lucky in having Franck. I've not heard connection mentioned in class once down in London. As a follow, all you get is which foot to step back on occasionally, if you've got a female teacher then arm placement is occasionally mentioned too and the occasional "ladies, let the man lead you, if he's not doing it, then don't move", but that was only from George, who used to teach at Clapham and has now retired. Even the workshops I did early on were largely focused on moves. Other than that, you are not actually taught to follow at all.

I've picked up most of what I know from the forum, some bits from watching other people dance, and getting out there and dancing with lots of different leads. Without that, I'd still be making lots of those beginner mistakes I'm sure (well, at least I'm hoping that I'm not making them, but since everyone is too polite to tell anyone anything like that, who knows :blush