To bounce or not to bounce?

[Captain Jack]

Hi all.

I've recently taken up Ceroc "properly" (rather than doing the odd class, and not coming back to it until months later).

One thing I am currently finding confusing is that certain lady followers seem to bounce a lot when they are dancing ! While there are others who are smooth and stay grounded throughout.

I come from a salsa and tango background so I'm used to smooth motion. I therefore find the bouncing ladies very difficult to dance with.

What should I do in response to this?

(Apologies if this is a subject that's been covered many times before)

[jivecat]

Hi all.

I've recently taken up Ceroc "properly" (rather than doing the odd class, and not coming back to it until months later).

One thing I am currently finding confusing is that certain lady followers seem to bounce a lot when they are dancing ! While there are others who are smooth and stay grounded throughout.

I come from a salsa and tango background so I'm used to smooth motion. I therefore find the bouncing ladies very difficult to dance with.

What should I do in response to this?

(Apologies if this is a subject that's been covered many times before)

Yes it has, but it always seems to be worth discussing again.

Do you mean overall bouncing, or bouncing the hand?

As a follower I find hand-bouncing leaders very difficult and usually unpleasant to follow. The bouncing hand motion interferes with the clarity of the lead and the connection by which the lead is transmitted. It can also cause a lot of strain to the arm and shoulder joints.

Overall body bounciness is slightly different and I suppose it is theoretically possible to lead clearly whilst bouncing up and down but it is usually combined with bouncy-handedness.

There's a certain amount of one-upmanship involved in the bounce/ don't bounce argument and some people seem not to mind it and believe it can contribute to the dance, but I don't.

The dance aesthetic I look for is smooth, grounded, controlled, with no extraneous movement that wastes energy without contributing anything good.

If smooth motion is what you expect, then go for it. I don't know how you smooth out followers, I've many times tried to smooth out leaders and it doesn't normally work. Sometimes after a long interval when i haven't danced with someone they've been miraculously smoothed out in the interim, possibly thanks to some enlightened teacher.

[philsmove]

confusing is that certain lady followers seem to bounce a lot when they are dancing

the the Leroc Bounce used to be taught in this part of the world but fortunately, with the exception of the odd class, has pretty much died out.
You have only two options
1 learn to live with it
2 add bouncers to your avoid list

[cederic]

There's a lady at one venue I go to that dances beautifully in classes until the music is turned on, then her hand starts bouncing every beat (not even every count).

I have no problem with people bouncing if that's the style they prefer, but I feel seasick dancing with her

[Captain Jack]

Yes it has, but it always seems to be worth discussing again.

Do you mean overall bouncing, or bouncing the hand?

As a follower I find hand-bouncing leaders very difficult and usually unpleasant to follow. The bouncing hand motion interferes with the clarity of the lead and the connection by which the lead is transmitted. It can also cause a lot of strain to the arm and shoulder joints.

Overall body bounciness is slightly different and I suppose it is theoretically possible to lead clearly whilst bouncing up and down but it is usually combined with bouncy-handedness.

Hi Jivecat. Yes I mean overall bouncing. Though as you say they often also bounce their hand as well.

I'm assuming at the moment that they bounce because of their dance background. Maybe they come from a Rock and Roll background, or ballroom Jive. But that's only an assumption.

As you also say, it makes it very difficult to give or receive a clear lead. You're having to fight with them all the time.

Maybe it's OK to dance like that when an actual Rock and Roll track comes on. I dont know. In any case I dont have a Rock and Roll background to draw on, so I'm currently sitting out on those tracks...

[Captain Jack]

There's a lady at one venue I go to that dances beautifully in classes until the music is turned on, then her hand starts bouncing every beat (not even every count).

I have no problem with people bouncing if that's the style they prefer, but I feel seasick dancing with her

In which case you do have a problem! But I know what you mean. I've felt it as well

From what I've seen so far, the better ceroc dancers look smooth and grounded on the floor. The very fact that there's "no footwork" means that you dont expect to be doing bounce steps in your dancing.

As a leader, I wouldnt know how following a bouncy leader feels. But coming from my dance background I dont think it can feel good. And from the outside it usually looks like the guy has little to no musical awareness.

[jivecat]

As a leader, I wouldnt know how following a bouncy leader feels. But coming from my dance background I dont think it can feel good. And from the outside it usually looks like the guy has little to no musical awareness.

That's often true but I've also seen people who are considered to be "good" dancers with their hands going up and down on every beat - although that style is now possibly very, very passe. Didn't someone produce a video of neolithic cerocers all doing just that?
It might feel just about OK bouncing through a fast dance with a lot of tension in the connection (i.e. me being a very heavy follow) as long as both partners were pretty much in tune with each other and the track. Might. For one dance only.

The thing is that any dancer who has the slightest awareness, musical or otherwise, very swiftly moves on to a smoother style so hand bouncing is now indelibly associated with the un-clued-up.

[straycat]

As a leader, I wouldnt know how following a bouncy leader feels. But coming from my dance background I dont think it can feel good. And from the outside it usually looks like the guy has little to no musical awareness.

Out of interest, what is your dance background?
In MJ terms, I agree that bouncing is usually a Bad Thing™, and hand-bouncing is a universal connection-destroyer.

Don't be so quick to dismiss it though - it can, feel great, depending on the execution. It forms a crucial part of Lindy, for example, to the point where the bounce drives much of the movement in the dance, and is used to give an amazing degree of connection. It's great for toning up the thighs and calves too

[Andy McGregor]

It's great for toning up the thighs and calves too

A man with toned thighs - heaven!

[straycat]

A man with toned thighs - heaven!

Well - to be fair, I've always had those. It's the rest of me that I'm having to work on more...

[Andy McGregor]

Well - to be fair, I've always had those. It's the rest of me that I'm having to work on more...

Ditto

[Captain Jack]

Out of interest, what is your dance background?
In MJ terms, I agree that bouncing is usually a Bad Thing™, and hand-bouncing is a universal connection-destroyer.

Don't be so quick to dismiss it though - it can, feel great, depending on the execution. It forms a crucial part of Lindy, for example, to the point where the bounce drives much of the movement in the dance, and is used to give an amazing degree of connection. It's great for toning up the thighs and calves too

Yes but the problem is I dont know lindy .. or Rock and Roll ... and I would assume most newbies would say the same.

I'm wondering whether this is a problem because Ceroc is a dance "without footwork". I cant tell anyone they're doing it "wrong" because they're bouncing. In fact,the fact that I dont "bounce" may be the wrong thing to do in any jive-based dance.

Personally I believe the main thing to learn is the use of tension/compression. In other words, how to use your hands, and not your feet. Is that right or wrong?

[Andy McGregor]

I'm wondering whether this is a problem because Ceroc is a dance "without footwork".

Sorry to contradict you, Ceroc is not a dance, it's the name of the company. The dance taught at most venues run by Ceroc is called Modern Jive. I think that you've been misled if someone told you it's "without footwork". There is footwork, it's really simple, but it is consistent within the bar structure of the music.

I cant tell anyone they're doing it "wrong" because they're bouncing.

Absolutely right. You can't tell anyone they're wrong. This is because it's a social dance and people don't want to hear they're wrong. However, they don't mind being corrected by the teacher. Ask the teacher.

In fact,the fact that I dont "bounce" may be the wrong thing to do in any jive-based dance.

Of course you could bounce. You're not incapable of bouncing. You've just chosen to dance without bouncing.

Personally I believe the main thing to learn is the use of tension/compression. In other words, how to use your hands, and not your feet. Is that right or wrong?

The main thing to learn is the difference between a body lead and an arm lead. Modern Jive requires both. Arm leads keep the body still and lead by moving the arms/hands: body leads come from moving your feet and keeping your hand/arm/body position isolated. Many MJ moves require a bit of both.

Some people teach MJ with a hand bounce. Some people teach MJ with no hand bounce. I teach that, from time to time, it's OK to show exhuberance and bounce from the knees/ankles to bouncy/happy music - but I also teach that the bounce should not make it to the hand. However, there are many teachers in MJ and some will tell you that I'm wrong and others will agree with me.

My advice is to find a teacher that suits you.

[Captain Jack]

Sorry to contradict you, Ceroc is not a dance, it's the name of the company. The dance taught at most venues run by Ceroc is called Modern Jive. I think that you've been misled if someone told you it's "without footwork". There is footwork, it's really simple, but it is consistent within the bar structure of the music.

Uh-oh ... semantics hijack ...

Yes I'm aware that Ceroc is a company rather than the name of the dance. To save us both grief, I wont argue - I'll call it MJ then

At the beginners level I still dont think there is footwork. Other than the sort of footwork that goes with moving to the beat in the first place. Which is I assume what you mean.

Shame really as I suspect you have to "learn" footwork to get to a higher level. Rather than learning it when you should - at the start. (Which is where you learn it in salsa or tango)

Absolutely right. You can't tell anyone they're wrong. This is because it's a social dance and people don't want to hear they're wrong. However, they don't mind being corrected by the teacher. Ask the teacher.

I dont tell anyone they're wrong. How would I know anyway? Even if I thought they were wrong, the teachers are teaching from a stage. So they cant come and give personal advice even if they wanted to.

Of course you could bounce. You're not incapable of bouncing. You've just chosen to dance without bouncing.

Your point being? Do you mean it's ok to bounce?

The main thing to learn is the difference between a body lead and an arm lead. Modern Jive requires both. Arm leads keep the body still and lead by moving the arms/hands: body leads come from moving your feet and keeping your hand/arm/body position isolated. Many MJ moves require a bit of both.

Some people teach MJ with a hand bounce. Some people teach MJ with no hand bounce. I teach that, from time to time, it's OK to show exhuberance and bounce from the knees/ankles to bouncy/happy music - but I also teach that the bounce should not make it to the hand. However, there are many teachers in MJ and some will tell you that I'm wrong and others will agree with me.

My advice is to find a teacher that suits you.

Fair enough, but one reason I go to jive is that it's local. I do enough travelling with my other dances - the last thing I want to do is search out the "right" MJ teacher

I do mostly AT and there there is a strong emphasis on tuning into the other person's body motion. There doesnt seem to be the same awareness in MJ. So at the moment I focus on arm/hand lead first, body motion second.

[Moo]

Uh-oh ... semantics hijack ...

Yes I'm aware that Ceroc is a company rather than the name of the dance. To save us both grief, I wont argue - I'll call it MJ then

At the beginners level I still dont think there is footwork. Other than the sort of footwork that goes with moving to the beat in the first place. Which is I assume what you mean.

Shame really as I suspect you have to "learn" footwork to get to a higher level. Rather than learning it when you should - at the start. (Which is where you learn it in salsa or tango)



I dont tell anyone they're wrong. How would I know anyway? Even if I thought they were wrong, the teachers are teaching from a stage. So they cant come and give personal advice even if they wanted to.



Your point being? Do you mean it's ok to bounce?



Fair enough, but one reason I go to jive is that it's local. I do enough travelling with my other dances - the last thing I want to do is search out the "right" MJ teacher

I do mostly AT and there there is a strong emphasis on tuning into the other person's body motion. There doesnt seem to be the same awareness in MJ. So at the moment I focus on arm/hand lead first, body motion second.

Personally I don't think there is much footwork (other than l-r,l-r etc, but then later doing what you want/think), there are a few moves that should have some, but few and far between really.

I kind of felt it was no footwork as a beginner, then learn a bit as an intermediate, then throw away what you want towards advanced (that doesn't mean there isn't something going on, just that it is less likely a formula, and more driven by music, distance, partner, other things). Some elements like triple steps I find an exception though. I also feel like I'll probably go back to thinking I need footwork again at some point ).

I think even with the "bounce", there is tuning in going on. I don't prefer a bounce, I like a dance to be as smooth as possible. Having said that, I also want the dance to be as good as possible for my partner and me. If she/he bounces, I will try and adjust and figure out my connection to my partner and work with that. I wouldn't like to force smooth on someone who is bouncing or vice versa.

I tend to think the more advanced dancer should be the one who is able to most adapt to the other iyswim.

[JiveLad]

Always worth discussing - as it comes up again - as it did in our ('Prestige') lodge this weekend.

My take on it (as an ex-bouncer) was that one of the very first things you see and do as a beginner before even doing a proper move, is the movement of the hands (left to right with a slight up and down bob) in time to the music......and then: 5,6,7....8.

This is done in time with the beat and so it 'feels' natural to continue it - and it then grows (like an evil spore) into fullonbounce.

I can't remember how/why mine disappeared: I think someone said something about dancing more smoothly...

Anyway - this was part of a bigger discussion about how some men are really 'rough' - and how good it would be if there was some way that teachers could give them feedback at a 1:1 level.

[Lee Bartholomew]

=
At the beginners level I still dont think there is footwork. Other than the sort of footwork that goes with moving to the beat in the first place. Which is I assume what you mean.

Shame really as I suspect you have to "learn" footwork to get to a higher level. Rather than learning it when you should - at the start. (Which is where you learn it in salsa or tango)

Just to cover this (again) there is no footwork in MJ, but some ways of doing footwork make the 'dance' easier

[Andy McGregor]

At the beginners level I still dont think there is footwork. Other than the sort of footwork that goes with moving to the beat in the first place. Which is I assume what you mean.

There is very specific footwork in MJ. No matter what the level. Saying there's no footwork for beginners MJ is like saying there's no footwork in beginners waltz Beginners may not get the footwork, but it's there to be done and there to be got right or wrong.

The difference is that MJ, especially for beginners, is done in the open hold. This means that incorrect footwork doesn't completely scupper your ability to dance and move to the music.

How you move to the music and how you step within the bar structure is what defines a dance and what differentiates it from other dances. Like other dances, MJ is defined by it's footwork. If you think there is no footwork in MJ you just have to watch the freestyle and say Right, Left, Right, Left to the 1,2,3,4 of a musical bar. You will be describing the footwork of the majority of women in freestyle. If you were to conduct this exercise when another dance, salsa, WCS, Tango, etc is being done, you will not be describing the foootwork.

[straycat]

How you move to the music and how you step within the bar structure is what defines a dance and what differentiates it from other dances. Like other dances, MJ is defined by it's footwork. If you think there is no footwork in MJ you just have to watch the freestyle and say Right, Left, Right, Left to the 1,2,3,4 of a musical bar. You will be describing the footwork of the majority of women in freestyle. If you were to conduct this exercise when another dance, salsa, WCS, Tango, etc is being done, you will not be describing the foootwork.

Yet if you did it for, say, Merengue, you would be describing the same stepping pattern.

Likewise - if you tried that with, let's say, WCS, Ballroom Jive and Lindy, you have a lot of overlap in footwork patterns - yet they are completely different dances in appearance, style and feel.

Dances are defined by a great deal more than just footwork.

[Andy McGregor]

Yet if you did it for, say, Merengue, you would be describing the same stepping pattern.

Sorry, I forgot about Merengue. It's the same dance as MJ. We had a former champion Salsa dancer come to our classes recently - she had problems with MJ 'til she realised, as she said, "it's Merengue" - and she was right. However, she started at a MJ "class down the road" and was told she was wrong and that "it's not Merengue" - we've seen her every week since she found us

I think it's convergent evolution. Both dances came from different places, but ended up in the same place.

One thing we can deduce from stray's post is that he thinks there's footwork in MJ.

N.B. When I asked this Salsa dancer why she's taken up Modern Jive rather than Salsa she told me that her former teacher is currently in prison for treason!!!

Likewise - if you tried that with, let's say, WCS, Ballroom Jive and Lindy, you have a lot of overlap in footwork patterns - yet they are completely different dances in appearance, style and feel.

Yes, of course there would be overlap - you've only got 2 feet, there's bound to be overlap. It's how the footwork fits the bar structure that makes the dances different and defines them.

Dances are defined by a great deal more than just footwork.

Of course they are. But the differences in the footwork are a very significant and clearly defined aspect of what makes dances different.